Chinese patcher

[Axeman]

Hello all, new here and am looking for a machine to sew axe masks (sheaths). I am working with 6-7oz veg tan, three layers thick, completely flat. My reason for this machine is that I am currently using an EZ awl sewing awl and am tired of poking my fingers!! I am not doing this for profit, just as a hobby for my own axe collection which is growing daily. That being said, I am not ready to jump into a cowboy 3200 for a couple masks per month. I dont think this would the best investment for me at this time. Later yes, but now, no. Dad has a 29K69 and it just wont do what I want, due to excessive stitch length with my thick material. I am getting over 20stitches per inch. I know I could rebuild the singer but read here that this machine will never give me the results I want. Which sucks cause I really like this machine! Obviously funds are very limited or I would just go to Toledo and pick up a cowboy!!

So, I did some searching here and found that the crude chinese patcher may do what I want. heavy thread and 5 stitches per inch on 1/4" or a little more veg tan tooling leather. A couple sheaths per month tops.

Does anyone have any experience using these machines for 20oz thickness. I know the machines need much tweaking and mods to work properly and I am willing to work out any bugs necessary. I have a mill, a lathe and Dad is a very competent sewing machine mechanic.

Second question, I thought  I read there is a small and large version of this machine. If this is true, can someone tell me how I can tell the difference in the two?

It looks like the Tippman Boss would be perfect for my needs but for the money, I can get a cowboy!! And again funds are limited. I can always keep poking myself and buy a gross of bandaids but would rather have a machine...

Thanks in advance for all help offered, Bubba the Axe Man

[Martyn]

Learn to saddle stitch. Far, far better than an EZ awl and the stitches are so much nicer, In addition, in terms of pure quality and craftsmanship, saddle stitching is absolutely the top of the pile. There isn't much sewing in an axe mask which makes it a perfect candidate for a real saddle stitch. Most people who use machines accept taking a step down in quality in exchange for convenience, speed and cost efficiency - that only works out if you are doing a LOT of sewing.

You should at least try it before investing in a machine. It takes some practice to do it reasonably well, but it's not rocket science.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Martyn

[Wizcrafts]

Our member, Darren Brosowski is the official dealer for the "Able" brand of Chinese patchers in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. When he sees this topic he may reply about the ability of his machines to sew 20 or 21 ounces ounces of veg tan leather at 5 stitches per inch or better. He may be "able" - pardon the pun - to set one up specifically to do this for you.

[cowboycolonel]

20stitches per inch!!! stay in the 5-7 realm.  Makes things look neat and professional.  I'd be afraid 20 would just perforate the leather.

[Axeman]

2 hours ago, cowboycolonel said:

20stitches per inch!!! stay in the 5-7 realm.  Makes things look neat and professional.  I'd be afraid 20 would just perforate the leather.

Yep, that was on a piece of scrap. It was UGLY. That is why I wont consider a machine that wont do 5spi on 20oz total of veg tan.

Martyn, I plan to two needle saddle stitch my next sheath and put away the awl.

Wiz, thanks for this information. I thought Darren was from down under! Glad to know we have someone on this side of the pond. 

To be quite honest, the reason I want a machine, besides the bloodletting, is that when I punch my stitch holes with my 4prong diamond punch, the holes (backside) dont always land in my groove!! It makes the whole project disappointing. If it wouldnt cause divorce, I would just go to Toledo and pick up a cowboy 32 or 3500 machine and call it done.

I was hoping to hear from someone that uses this machine to tell me if I am asking too much of it... From what Wiz stated above, it sounds possible if set up correctly. Plus this crude machine is really my style and I love a good challenge.

Thanks again, Bubba

Edited October 30, 2016 by Axeman

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Axeman said:

Wiz, thanks for this information. I thought Darren was from down under! Glad to know we have someone on this side of the pond. 

Thanks again, Bubba

He is. Darren is in Australia.

[dikman]

Axeman, there have been a couple of threads about these Chinese machines. The larger one sounds like the one you'll need as the smaller one is best with #69 thread (it may handle #138, although the bobbin is very small so won't hold much of that thread!). Darren is certainly the one who can best advise on these wee beasties.

As Martyn said, you can't beat a good saddle stitch, which is how I still do my holsters. Have you tried punching the holes before grooving the back? That way you may be able to tweak the groove to line up with the holes. The other thing you could try is using the machine you have to punch the holes in the leather first (no thread, just the needle). I do this with some of my hand stitching as it gives a nice even spacing and makes it much easier to get the awl through when saddle stitching. Without thread loading the machine down they can punch through leather fairly easily.

[HobbledCobbler]

Axeman, I've just bought a Chinese Leather Patcher and I don't believe you are going to get 20 oz. of leather going through that machine!

Bob's Leatherworks has a video up on youtube with a leather patcher. He does saddles and holsters. I called him after seeing his youtube video and asked him about the thickness of the leather in his video and what size needle he was using.

He said, 2 peices of 4/5 leather with a 22/140 needle.

And at that size needle, if you can find an alternative, you'll be using from #69 to #138 thread.

Now, the Leather Patcher I got off of Ebay, is a 15x1 needle system. That's a HOME needle system with a flat shank. They don't make 22/140 size leather needles for a 15x1 needle system anymore!!!

I've contacted all of the needle companies and they say there's no way to get them because there wasn't enough demand and they don't make them.

I've managed to get some 22/140 sharps, but not the leather needle. Which would work on soft thick leather like suede.

I've been checking out some other needle systems to see what I can exchange. The needle system is going to have to match up with not only the needle length, but the depth from the top of the shank to the eye. Otherwise that needle isn't going to pick up the bobbin thread. And then, you've also got to make sure that the daggone thing won't crash into the innards of the bobbin casing or it will damage your machine.

No, if you are doing something that thick, I think you are going to need an Industrial machine with a motor.

 

[Darren Brosowski]

Hi Axeman,

The answer is........ not really.

20oz is about 8mm and that is way more than any patcher can do! There are five different patchers from China starting with the basic one that will do everything a 29k will do, three bigger versions of this machine up to the Chinese 29k variant.

The basic model will, depending on the individual machine, punch through 14oz all day long. Generally the Chinese 29k is limited to 10oz but someone like Bob Kovar at Toledo can probably make it sew through thicker material.

Then there are the other three machines that use the same system of cam driven arms as the 1860's Wertheim machines. They are bigger, heavier and use bigger needles BUT they are not designed for heavy leather. There are many limitations as they are designed to sew through thick soft material.

Save your pennies and buy a CB2500 at the absolute minimum.

 

 

 

 

[Darren Brosowski]

1 hour ago, HobbledCobbler said:

Axeman, I've just bought a Chinese Leather Patcher and I don't believe you are going to get 20 oz. of leather going through that machine!

Bob's Leatherworks has a video up on youtube with a leather patcher. He does saddles and holsters. I called him after seeing his youtube video and asked him about the thickness of the leather in his video and what size needle he was using.

He said, 2 peices of 4/5 leather with a 22/140 needle.

And at that size needle, if you can find an alternative, you'll be using from #69 to #138 thread.

Now, the Leather Patcher I got off of Ebay, is a 15x1 needle system. That's a HOME needle system with a flat shank. They don't make 22/140 size leather needles for a 15x1 needle system anymore!!!

I've contacted all of the needle companies and they say there's no way to get them because there wasn't enough demand and they don't make them.

I've managed to get some 22/140 sharps, but not the leather needle. Which would work on soft thick leather like suede.

I've been checking out some other needle systems to see what I can exchange. The needle system is going to have to match up with not only the needle length, but the depth from the top of the shank to the eye. Otherwise that needle isn't going to pick up the bobbin thread. And then, you've also got to make sure that the daggone thing won't crash into the innards of the bobbin casing or it will damage your machine.

No, if you are doing something that thick, I think you are going to need an Industrial machine with a motor.

 

Leather point needles are available in 21/130 which at hand crank speed is more than enough for 138/M20 thread. Some of my 29k customers use the 21/130 needles for 138/M20 in their 29k patchers.

If you asked I would tell you that the bed of the Chinese patchers is adjustable and you could use the 134 class needle which is readily available in 22/140 leather point. Needle length is the same so no need to adjust the timing.

 

[Singermania]

Quote

Its worth remembering that anything called a 'patcher' is a patcher.... not really designed for quality stitching on heavy leather work.    Yes in new machines the CB3200 would be ideal, but there are many other walking foot and compound feed machines out there that would do the job for you.

 

[Axeman]

Well, I guess I will have to stick with hand stitching for now. I am very appreciative of the advise given and You Darren are quite the stand up guy. Many machine dealers I am sure would have sold me that machine full well knowing i would be dissatisfied with its performance. You told me what I needed to hear, buy a proper machine for my task. I think I will save my pennies and make a drive to Toledo. Thanks again, Bubba the Axe man

[Darren Brosowski]

Serious machine sellers would rather point out the limitations of the machine that you think you want.

I am an engineer with marketing training and have worked in sales for most of my life and the main thing I have learned is that it costs a lot of money to attract a customer but nothing but honesty to keep them. When someone contacts me about a machine the first question I ask is "what do you want to sew" and we go from there.

Guys like Bob and Ronnie have built their business on doing this and that is the model I follow

[Martyn]

17 hours ago, Axeman said:

To be quite honest, the reason I want a machine, besides the bloodletting, is that when I punch my stitch holes with my 4prong diamond punch, the holes (backside) dont always land in my groove!!

....and you are using a groove because?

A good saddle stitch is a beautiful thing, but running it in a groove forces it to run straight and destroys it. The groove serves no practical purpose.

[Axeman]

3 hours ago, Martyn said:

....and you are using a groove because?

A good saddle stitch is a beautiful thing, but running it in a groove forces it to run straight and destroys it. The groove serves no practical purpose.

Uh... because I thought you were supposed to....and I bought a fancy tool that makes the groove. I am pretty new to leather work.

[dikman]

4 hours ago, Martyn said:

running it in a groove forces it to run straight and destroys it.

Martyn, of course, is quite right. I don't groove my holsters so I didn't even give it a thought. Not using grooves makes it simpler. Try using the machine like I said, to pre-punch the holes. If it doesn't work then use your punch. Either way do away with the Ezyawl, get the gear you need for saddlestitching and do it that way. I think you'll be pleased with the results.

(Al Stohlman's books tend to emphasize grooving so many people seem to think that it has to be used. It has its place, but not on everything).

[Martyn]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Axeman said:

Uh... because I thought you were supposed to....and I bought a fancy tool that makes the groove. I am pretty new to leather work.

The groove just forces the stitch to run straight, so if you're not too good at stitching, it can make your work look neater, but there is a price to pay for it. A saddle stitch makes a zig-zag pattern like this....

If you run it in a groove, it flattens out the stitch. It stops it from laying naturally in a zig-zag and effectively destroys the look of the stitch. It ends up looking more like a machine stitch.

This is a good video for getting your head round saddle stitching. Like I said, it takes practice, but it's not rocket science and the result is well worth the effort. Best of all, it's a fraction of the cost of a sewing machine and the perfect solution for axe masks, knife sheathes and such.

 

Here4's another - it's a long video, but the technique is probably explained a bit better and he uses chisels to make the holes instead of an awl - which I think is an easier, albeit less traditional method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0EL7K2NhYs

Edited October 31, 2016 by Martyn

[HobbledCobbler]

18 hours ago, Darren Brosowski said:

Leather point needles are available in 21/130 which at hand crank speed is more than enough for 138/M20 thread. Some of my 29k customers use the 21/130 needles for 138/M20 in their 29k patchers.

If you asked I would tell you that the bed of the Chinese patchers is adjustable and you could use the 134 class needle which is readily available in 22/140 leather point. Needle length is the same so no need to adjust the timing.

 

Yeah, I already figured out about the 134D on my own before I joined this group a couple of days ago. After doing a nonstop search for almost 2 weeks trying to debunk what the "manufacturers" stated couldn't be done! And losing a lot of sleep doing it.

I literally called them up and all I got was, "Oh no! You can't use a round shank needle in a system 15x1 machine! You'll destroy your machine!" "Oh, no! Don't try that, it can damage your machine!"

I am well-known to disprove that something "can't be done!" in a lot of situations but I'm not a sewing machine mechanic.

It didn't come with a manual. And I have no idea how you are supposed to "adjust the bed", whatever that means!.

Why would one need to adjust the bed if I found a needle that works????

What would adjusting the bed do for it? Carry a longer needle? That doesn't sound like it would work without also adjusting the needle bar, etc. And I'm no mechanic.

[Darren Brosowski]

3 hours ago, HobbledCobbler said:

Yeah, I already figured out about the 134D on my own before I joined this group a couple of days ago. After doing a nonstop search for almost 2 weeks trying to debunk what the "manufacturers" stated couldn't be done! And losing a lot of sleep doing it.

I literally called them up and all I got was, "Oh no! You can't use a round shank needle in a system 15x1 machine! You'll destroy your machine!" "Oh, no! Don't try that, it can damage your machine!"

I am well-known to disprove that something "can't be done!" in a lot of situations but I'm not a sewing machine mechanic.

It didn't come with a manual. And I have no idea how you are supposed to "adjust the bed", whatever that means!.

Why would one need to adjust the bed if I found a needle that works????

What would adjusting the bed do for it? Carry a longer needle? That doesn't sound like it would work without also adjusting the needle bar, etc. And I'm no mechanic.

If it works then no problem.

The needle point is pushed further to the left with the round shank so sometimes I need to move the bed - bottom arm - to bring the needle back to the right position. To do that I just loosen off the three bolts underneath, adjust then tighten the bolts up again.

I love proving people wrong too and I have sold hundreds of these machines when people in the industry laughed at me!! As they are so solid my warranty rate is virtually zero.

 

[Singermania]

You misunderstood Darren, we're not laughing at your machines we're laughing at your Hawaiian shirts.....;)

 

[dikman]

You could try grinding a flat on the needle?

[Darren Brosowski]

10 hours ago, dikman said:

You could try grinding a flat on the needle?

No need mate as a small adjustment to the machine is easier than trying to grind every needle

 

[dikman]

Yeah, you're probably right. Plus the grind on every needle would have to be identical or changing needles could be a problem. On reflection, perhaps not one of my brightest ideas......

[HobbledCobbler]

15 hours ago, Darren Brosowski said:

If it works then no problem.

The needle point is pushed further to the left with the round shank so sometimes I need to move the bed - bottom arm - to bring the needle back to the right position. To do that I just loosen off the three bolts underneath, adjust then tighten the bolts up again.

I love proving people wrong too and I have sold hundreds of these machines when people in the industry laughed at me!! As they are so solid my warranty rate is virtually zero.

 

Aha!

Thanks for that! I didn't know you could do that with this machine!

Seems I made a better investment than I thought!

It was suggested earlier, sorry I can't remember who posted it, that because the needle shank was a smaller diameter and I was wondering whether the needle clamp would hold it, it was suggested that I put a small piece of wire in there. Should I? Or will it hold it tight?

The needles were supposed to come in the mail today. My mailman/maillady doesn't like me right now! LOL!

Okay, so...let me get it from the horses mouth, so to speak!

Exactly how thick can this machine go on veg tan leather? OZ's please! And how high up in needle size can I really go without having o drill a larger hole in the plate?

It's really nice to know there's somebody here that knows this machine!

[Darren Brosowski]

You will not need to put anything in the needle clamp - it should work ok.

Possible up to 15oz depending on the leather and the machine fairies.

I would not try anything bigger than 22g and even then it depends on the leather as the spring for the foot cannot hold it down if you push too hard