Online Saddle School

[jtweatherford]

Does anyone know of anybody who does a school online for how to make a saddle? I'm curious if this is even a possibility and I cannot find anything online.

If I were to create an online course, how many of you would be interested in it? I was thinking this would be an excellent idea because most people cannot afford to take a couple weeks off to go and learn in-person from some of the reputable saddle makers.

If there is an interest, how much would you pay for an online course to teach you how to make saddles (keeping in mind that in-person schools can cost anywhere from $1,500-$10,000)?

What complications might you foresee with an online course?

What benefits do you see to having it all be online?

Any other comments would be much appreciated.

[OldNews]

I love the concept! Many of us are part timers who struggle to get away from their "real" job to go to schools, trade shows, etc. I wonder if it needs to be interactive or not. Probably not, but be prepared for a bazillion questions because it would be very difficult to cover every little trick you've picked up over the years. It actually sounds like something I would be interested in to try and pick up your tricks, so I don't have to figure them out the hard way! As far as price point, I would think in the $300-$500 dollar range is probably where folks would want to be. Nothing scientific about that number, it just seems like a fair price. Good Luck!

[Ken Nelson]

If you can learn to build saddles online, why would you not use the resources on this site to learn how.  There are some very informative video series out there that can be bought reasonably.   Hands on instruction will never be replaced by videos and online instruction in my opinion.  But it is an option for a lot of people.

I am a self-taught saddlemaker, using two  different teaching manuals and the help of a couple of friends that had some experience.  After building 60 or so saddles, I did an apprenticeship under a really good saddle maker and learned a lot.  So with 15 years of doing it behind me, I hope I have learned some things.

 Make sure the person teaching the course is a good saddle maker. Make sure you know a good saddle from a poor or worse junk saddle.  Be aware setting up to build saddles correctly is not a cheap investment  You have to have the proper tools and machines of good quality to do a good job.    You are not going to be a saddle maker after building a few saddles.  It takes a number of them to learn it and master the skills.  It takes room to build saddles and you need a designated shop space.   You need to use good trees and materials to build good saddles   These things cost a lot of money and if you are lucky, you may get your materials out of the first 10 or so you build.

Bottom line is this.:  Education costs and it does not matter rather you go to a really good saddlemaker and pay him  to help you learn or buy a set of books or videos and learn how yourself,  It is going to cost you.  In my case, I worked as a straight up cowboy for a lot of years   I knew good saddles from poor saddles and that is an important part of it.  I used to frequent Harry Adam's saddleshop on a regular basis for 4 or 5 years before I started on my journey and I picked up a lot of information there.  I wouldn't even consider teaching someone to build a saddle for $500.00.  The cheapest good guy that I know that will teach you to build a saddle and I think you build 2 there was getting $6000. and you room and board yourself.  He is cheap for as good as he is.  I don't even know if he is still doing it.  

Best of luck on your journey.   BTW   I work full time building saddles, just saddles and I am out nearly two years.

Ken

 

 

[HBAR]

I dont think that an online saddlemaking school  would be as good as a few week or few month class that was one on one in person with an accomplished saddlemaker.

However, I think it is doable.  With webcams you could easily show the instructor details of what you are working on or struggling with.  They could also show you things the same way. 

I have several saddlemaking books, several videos  and other resources, but being able to ask questions to the right person and get the right answer would be good. Sure you can ask questions on online forums, but lets face it there are alot of people who think they are knowledgable and arent.  (not just this forum probably all forums regardless of the topic)

[NVLeatherWorx]

Ken Nelson has brought up a very good point; more than enough information contained within these forums to pretty much learn just about everything you need to about leather working as a whole so why not use it.

HBAR also has good point and I speak from experience.  When I learned the art of Saddle Making I did it by spending all of my time actually learning everything through hands-on work and the experience gave me the confidence to eventually make them on my own.  Learning how to properly make a saddle isn't something that you can just sit down and read a few pages or watch a couple of short videos about and then go out and to it.  Saddle making is a true art and it requires much skill which, unless you have been working with leather for quite some time and are very good at it, you pretty much need to learn all of the other stuff first, then look at learning how to make a saddle.  Anyone who has made a saddle can tell you that it isn't as easy as one may think it is.  

The reason that it is becoming more and more difficult to find anyone to learn from is because the saddle industry has also fallen victim to the mass production concept where the finished product is cheaper than what a saddle maker would charge but the quality of these mass produced saddles is also way below the standards of what that saddle maker would do.  I turn away many requests to repair mass produced/machine sewn saddles just because the owner only wants the affected area repaired and not the entire fault corrected and I have come across some of these saddles that were not made in what would be considered the proper method and I wanted no part of future complications.  This is why I quit making saddles altogether and it has been the best move that I have made.  Very few people want to pay for anything that has been made to the high quality standards that we once required and your average modern day horse owner is not educated in the areas of how a properly fit and made saddle should sit on their horse; they have bought into the same life as everyone else with their "I want it now" and, "It fits well enough" attitude that real saddle makers have begun to dry up.

True saddle making experience means that you know how to properly measure the horse and rider for the proper fit (and it does make a difference for both of them).  You also learn how to make the tree and then do so; none of this polymer based stuff that you find on the shelf of your local "farm and ranch supply house" (worst place to buy a saddle actually as they are all chain stores nowadays).  Every step of the process requires things that you don't get from a book or a video and that is why there used to be Apprenticeship programs for this trade.  You can still find some but those who still do it are booked solid for a long time.  There just isn't the money in it anymore as there once was and the investment required to have a true saddle shop should be a major point of consideration.

[bikermutt07]

Seems to me that saddle building is a whole different beast from making wallets and knife sheaths. I'm not sure if tack even fits in the same level as saddle building.

Being a carpenter, if I wanted to learn saddlemaking I would want an apprenticeship. If I was going to teach my method (If was a saddlemaker) I would only want to do it through an apprenticeship program.

Ideas of quality, safety, comfort, and liability come to mind.

You don't want some internet student messing up or hurting people and horses saying, "WELL, that's how Bob taught me to do it."

The other day I was browsing a help wanted ad here. The kid wanted a well built saddle for 1500 bucks.

He quickly learned that wasn't going to happen. I advised him (through my own ignorance) that maybe he should spend that money on tools and books to learn how to make one himself.

I was quickly chastised (and rightly so) that that method could be dangerous to not only the rider, but the horse as well.

If it were up to me, I would leave Saddlery teaching in the hands on only category.

.02

[NVLeatherWorx]

2 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

Seems to me that saddle building is a whole different beast from making wallets and knife sheaths. I'm not sure if tack even fits in the same level as saddle building.

Being a carpenter, if I wanted to learn saddlemaking I would want an apprenticeship. If I was going to teach my method (If was a saddlemaker) I would only want to do it through an apprenticeship program.

Ideas of quality, safety, comfort, and liability come to mind.

You don't want some internet student messing up or hurting people and horses saying, "WELL, that's how Bob taught me to do it."

The other day I was browsing a help wanted ad here. The kid wanted a well built saddle for 1500 bucks.

He quickly learned that wasn't going to happen. I advised him (through my own ignorance) that maybe he should spend that money on tools and books to learn how to make one himself.

I was quickly chastised (and rightly so) that that method could be dangerous to not only the rider, but the horse as well.

If it were up to me, I would leave Saddlery teaching in the hands on only category.

.02

Amen my friend.  The art of saddle making is the Holy Grail of the leather trade and it requires a commitment like nothing ever experienced before, as long as it is done properly.  I have at least two contacts per week regarding how to adjust a store bought saddle so that it doesn't cause the horse any discomfort; my answer is simple: get a properly fit saddle made and your horse won't even know it is on them.  The only properly fit saddle is the one that is custom made to the specifications that are best suited for the horse and rider and there isn't anything on the shelf that will meet those needs, period.  And you are very correct on the need of actually learning it hands-on through a goal oriented apprenticeship program; nothing gives you the insight into what you are about to enter like learning the hard way.  Saddle making is not a "shortcut" opportunity or skill set that can be obtained from just books and videos, no matter how damn good the author/producer might be (or think they are).

[OldNews]

I would certainly like to "respectfully disagree" with a few of the thoughts on this thread. I ranch here in North Dakota, and we ride a lot horses. It is not uncommon for me to be on a young dumb horse in the morning. That young dumb horse is still not physically mature, yet the same saddle that fits him will fit the old steady horse I use in the afternoon. Most horses of any breed are built the same, period. Yes you can find a few that aren't, and usually that can be fixed with the proper pads. I know people like to believe saddle building is the hardest thing in the world to do, but it really isn't an unteachable skill. There are thousands of saddles out there made by guys who read a book. Wouldn't a video to go with the book be better yet?

[Ken Nelson]

It has been my experience that due to a lot of horses being bred today that are of different types, it is almost impossible for one saddle to fit them all.  A saddle that will fit a 10 year old thoroughbred that is rode down hard, will not fit a mutton weathered 3 yr. old that is fat and I don't care how many blankets and pads you have. A lot of people don't have to ride that wide a range of horses.  50 years ago I had 1 saddle, 1 double weave Navajo blanket and 2 hair pads and fit everything that I got on for about  10 or 12 years. AND I wasn't soreing horses either.  Then I started having problems fitting some of the horses I rode. Just too many different types of horses and some of them come into my string thin and some fat. Some could be close to be classed as deformed.

I agree that if you have a knack for working with your hands and a strong enough desire to learn how to do it, it is possible to be a really decent  self taught saddle maker.  I did it and the saddles I built when I first started 15+ years ago are still in service but I did make some mistakes on them.   Like the previous poster, I had rode a horseback for a lot  of years.  I made most of my living for over 35 years working cattle a horseback.  I figured it up after I quit ranching and cowboying for a living and the best I could tell, I had been on close to 900 head of different horses, maybe a bit over that   If you have rode extensively, been on a lot of different horses and repaired your own and maybe done some leather work it is definately possible to be self taught. 

However, when you figure in the machines, tools, and material needed to do a good job of building a saddle, not mention a good manual, and a good video or two, you will probably  have more invested than what a good handmade saddle will cost you and a lot more than what a good used one will cost.

I have repaired the best and the worst and learned from all of them.  Good ideas and what not to do.  I think it all depends on how long you want your learning curve to take, and how good you want to get.  Going to a school is not going to guarantee you will get off to a good school.  I have seen a couple of schools that were really good and a couple that are awful and some in between.  The best instructor cannot teach you if you are not open to learning and doing it his way. I was fortunate enough to work for and under one of the best saddle makers on the northern plains and I did learn a lot. I had a lot of respect for the saddles this man built and I wanted to learn how he built them.  If I had not wanted to learn his way, I would never have walked into his shop and asked for a deal.

Rule # 1 is, in my opinion:  If you don't know what a good saddle is, what makes a good saddle, You will never build a good saddle.  I know a lot of people that think they know and don't know.  Some of them should know but don't.

That is my 2 cents worth.   Ken

 

[OldNews]

Ken brings up a great point that I had not considered. I guess I was thinking about this from my own perspective. I spend a lot of time horseback, and have made a couple saddles for myself. This video would probably do me some good. However a brand new saddle builder who doesn't have much experience fitting saddles or repairing them should probably get some hands on experience first. Not that they can't learn or even be self taught, but it is a much much steeper learning curve. Another thing I hadn't considered was that I have Quarter horses and only Quarter Horses. My young horses this year are all half siblings, and built alike. I like horses built like this, and thats why I raise that kind. That makes saddle fitting fairly simple, and most makers don't have that luxury. I don't think I would ever argue the fact that hands on is the best way to learn, but I still think there is a place for instructional videos in many areas of leather working. Personally, I could use one more saddle, and I'm probably just going to have someone else build it for me. I enjoy doing it, but I have a hard time coming up with the 100+ hours it takes me to do it.

[jtweatherford]

Wow. That is all great info friends. Thank you so much. It has given me lots to consider.

[Squilchuck]

In addition to an online school, some sort of mentoring program might be of interest for some new makers. I have made a couple saddles self taught w books and videos, but also have mentoring from a local journeyman saddle maker to advise me when I run into problems or have questions. This forum is great for some problem solving, but interaction time is slow (days) and limited.  A person could setup an appointment via an online video app like Skype to discuss issues, show what they have done, etc.  Not sure how you'd work out payment, but maybe people could subscribe for a set amount of sessions or total time.  That could prove a valuable service for new makers without local mentoring options. --John

[bikermutt07]

So I have been thinking about this some more and here is what I think.

While I still believe it should be taught in person, I have an alternative idea for weeding out the yahoos from the program.

Start with requiring them to take two preliminary courses.

1st course is "How to properly measure a person for the saddle".

2nd course is "How to properly measure a horse for the saddle".

These I imagine would need to cover several lessons to ensure proper and safe fitting.

Make them expensive. Do this, and you may find some people who are really wanting to invest their time and money into learning.

If they aren't willing to take and pass the preliminary courses, then they don't really want to learn.

Just a thought.

[OldNews]

    bikermutt, I too have been thinking about that. While I completely agree with your theory, I have been trying to figure out how practical it is. It has been my experience that different disciplines have different requirements. Let me give you an example, a draft horse (I still don't know why people ride them) is going to require an very different fit than a Quarter horse, or an Arabian, or a Morgan, etc. That seems to be what makes saddle makers find a niche and stick to it. I would dare say that very few saddle makers in WY have much experience making English saddles for dressage horses. You see my point. So while I love your theory, and I've been thinking along the same lines, I wonder how practical that really is. I for one wouldn't pay one red cent to learn to make a saddle for a draft horse, because I'm never going to do it. I would just be thinking about that college professor who was convinced I needed Humanities, or the English teacher who thought I should know how to diagram a sentence. They were both wrong, and they wasted many hours of my life. 

     I keep coming back to different disciplines. A working cowboy in this day and age has 5-9 horses in his string, and ONE saddle. It works because he rides like horses. Thats what he needs to learn to start with. If he decides he wants to expand into something else, then he needs to learn again. I think that is something jtweatherford needs to consider when putting this together. What kind of saddle do you want to teach someone to build? If it's a ranch style roping saddle, then just be up front about the advertising and promotion of the video. 

     My other concern has been the help aspect of this. If someone doesn't understand something, there has to be a way for them to follow up and ask a question. I like the idea of Skype. These days all you need is a smartphone to video chat with someone, but is that something you charge for? If people keep asking the same question over and over, then it probably wasn't explained well enough in the video. I'd sure like to hear other thoughts on that.

[bikermutt07]

1 hour ago, OldNews said:

    bikermutt, I too have been thinking about that. While I completely agree with your theory, I have been trying to figure out how practical it is. It has been my experience that different disciplines have different requirements. Let me give you an example, a draft horse (I still don't know why people ride them) is going to require an very different fit than a Quarter horse, or an Arabian, or a Morgan, etc. That seems to be what makes saddle makers find a niche and stick to it. I would dare say that very few saddle makers in WY have much experience making English saddles for dressage horses. You see my point. So while I love your theory, and I've been thinking along the same lines, I wonder how practical that really is. I for one wouldn't pay one red cent to learn to make a saddle for a draft horse, because I'm never going to do it. I would just be thinking about that college professor who was convinced I needed Humanities, or the English teacher who thought I should know how to diagram a sentence. They were both wrong, and they wasted many hours of my life. 

     I keep coming back to different disciplines. A working cowboy in this day and age has 5-9 horses in his string, and ONE saddle. It works because he rides like horses. Thats what he needs to learn to start with. If he decides he wants to expand into something else, then he needs to learn again. I think that is something jtweatherford needs to consider when putting this together. What kind of saddle do you want to teach someone to build? If it's a ranch style roping saddle, then just be up front about the advertising and promotion of the video. 

     My other concern has been the help aspect of this. If someone doesn't understand something, there has to be a way for them to follow up and ask a question. I like the idea of Skype. These days all you need is a smartphone to video chat with someone, but is that something you charge for? If people keep asking the same question over and over, then it probably wasn't explained well enough in the video. I'd sure like to hear other thoughts on that.

I agree with all of this except the part about sentence diagramming. Ask a 10 year old what an adverb is. Diagramming should be taught.

[Thor]

On 28.1.2017 at 4:53 PM, bikermutt07 said:

I was quickly chastised (and rightly so) that that method could be dangerous to not only the rider, but the horse as well.

 

Glad to read that you didn't take that comment as an offense and you actually learned something from it.

[bikermutt07]

59 minutes ago, Thor said:

Glad to read that you didn't take that comment as an offense and you actually learned something from it.

Absolutely, that's why I am on this site. Every day I'm on planet earth is a chance to learn something new. I learn something from everyone, even what not to do.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

11 hours ago, OldNews said:

Let me give you an example, a draft horse (I still don't know why people ride them)

 My thoughts EXACTLY!  This fad is sweeping the nation, and I can't understand why. They really aren't all that much fun to ride. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the original question. Just made me smile that someone else finally agrees with me!

[SmithCreek]

I know I am resurrecting an ancient thread here But here goes.

Ken, I just retired my regular job and in a week or two  I am going to be riding everything from BLM mustangs to thoroughbreds and there is absolutely no way I can afford more than one good saddle, what would you recommend for a tree in this case? I have an old Bona Allen ranch roper that I have owned for probably 30 years that has worked really well for me on horses with a quarter horse build and has never hurt a horse yet and I don't intend to retire it I just have a craving for a more cowboy looking rig. 

The Bona was bought as a novelty but after the first time I rode it it became my main saddle. The stirrup leather where exposed and the fenders had been replaced but didn't match so I took them off and it made a dang fine saddle for the ones that wanted to pitch a bit.

Many Thanks,

Creek.

[Klara]

Obviously I'm not Ken, but I have a lot of experience riding horses not my own and generally they have a saddle. If I find it uncomfortable that's just too bad...