Gritzner vs. Frobana sole stitchers

[Vinculus]

Hey, all.

So, after purchasing a completely refurbished Junker und Ruh SD28 for way too much money and eventually coming to the conclusion that it does not work well for my application, I am looking into the "other" tabletop sole stitchers.

I make double row stitchdown boots, currently stitched by hand - see here. The first row of stitches secures the upper to the midsole and I need to get right up against the upper while the lasts are still in the boots. Due to the nature of the Junker's presser foot and needle, it mars the uppers significantly and I cannot get into the waist of the boot at all. The Junker doesn't really like stitching through 6 oz. uppers, 11 oz. sole bends and 4 mm. rubber soles either, haha. I imagine it would work much better for welted footwear with a leather sole.

Looking at the Frobana and Gritzner machines, these seem to have a different presser foot and needle layout that would allow me to get the job done without damaging my uppers. My question is simple. Are there any significant differences between the Frobana and Gritzner sole stitchers? To me they look identical, but I guess the devil is in the details. I keep seeing Gritzners both in the grayish green color as well as the same red color as the Frobanas. This has lead me (maybe falsely?) to believe that they are one and the same. Could anyone in the know enlighten me on this subject?

I can get a semi-clean looking Frobana in working condition for €600 locally. I know that needles are expensive and rare, but I'd wager the needles for the Gritzner as equally as hard to come by? At least the correct thread for the these machines is available through Göetz in Europe. If anyone has a source for the actual machines in Europe, besides Sieck.de, please do tell.

Thank you.

[Vinculus]

Nevermind, Andreas from Sieck told me the Frobana and Gritzner machines are the same. Gritzner is the original manufacturer from East Germany, while Frobana was the brand/dealer name in West Germany.

Now all I have to do is find one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[HENDREFORGAN]

I have a Frobana Side Sole Stitcher which - very rare - is mounted atop it's "original equipment" pedestal.  Bought from a retiring cobbler about 30 years ago, fortunately a good number of new needles, spare shuttle/hook assembly, front plate, etc.  Didn't have a motor though as the local safety people condemned it.

Over the years I've used it by hand but, getting older now, will put a motor back.  Originally a clutch motor controlled by a foot pedal on the pedestal but, seeing our 205-370 power it's way through thick hide easily despite seeming to have a rather small induction motor, I reckon the newer motor system will work.  Quieter and safer too.  Remember with ANY idea to table top mount these that the flywheel together with some of the internal operation does pass about 50 mm to 75 mm lower than the bottom of the sewing head casting?  Then there is the crank handle too . . really very pleased ours has it's purpose designed pedestal with a parts drawer too.

It's used mainly for sewing down the sides of "straps" - we make "adult toys" - but we also use it to sew thick rubber to thick (10 oz +) veg tanned hide and it does that in it's stride.  Obviously it's very narrow "throat" is what limits these machines but, it does fit our needs, and I'm sure it'll do the same for yours too?  The "side sole stitcher" was a purpose made tool for shoe making.

The needles are now almost impossible to source BUT, set your machine up and sew slow, and they'll last for ages . . their size has one advantage . . you can hone that point sharp again by a lick on a wet-stone.

Do have an original owners manual in English so, if you get one, let me know and I'll do you a copy.  Look too for this machines mention in threads on here?  Some interesting comments.

[Constabulary]

There is a dealer in Germany who has the 761 PG needles for a fair price considered with stupid Ebay prices:

http://www.rimgm.de/shop/NADELN/Nadel-761-PG-5-Schmetz-10-Stueck.html?listtype=search&searchparam=761 PG

grab them while they last

http://www.wdn.de/artinfo.php?artnr=A 33505

the above has them on request but still a fair price and even lower price when you buy 10 packs.

Otto Bock / JOS America also has them:

https://www.ottobock-josamerica.com/de/produkten/75-20-3016-0.html?action=infoaanvraag&return_sku=75-20-3016-0

Otto Bock also still sells the Frobana as Outsole stitcher F42 so the parts situation should be quite good on the long view.

https://www.ottobock-josamerica.com/de/produkten/75-20-2910-0.html

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Constabulary

[Vinculus]

Thanks for the replies guys, very helpful!

I actually found a fully refurbished and working Frobana locally for €600. It comes with 4 extra needles, but I will be sure to pick up some extra 10-packs while stock lasts. With the rise of "slow fashion" it's weird that no one has started making reproduction needles for these types of machines again. Hopefully soon, as the world seems to slowly becoming aware of all the issues with fast fashion and wanting something better.

As an aside, what kind of thread can I run this machine with? My Junker und Ruh SD28 handled 0,6, 0,8 and 1mm. waxed braided Ritza Tiger thread like a champ even if it was never designed to do that. But this machine might be different and actually require Z twist thread? I know Göetz in Germany sells Hoogen 20/6 Z twist thread as well as bobbin thread for the Frobana machines, but getting an e-mail reply from them is absolutely impossible, haha.

[HENDREFORGAN]

Do you know I have no idea what the thread we use on our Frobana is?   Due to the fact that we use it on very heavy projects I'm not even sure it's not technically "butchers twine".   It's more than I mm diameter and a very heavy multiple twist.  It's uncoated but then with the Frobana having an oil bath fitted it's well "greased" in use.

About the only problem we do have with the machine - and we've used various grades of thread so we know it's not relating to one size - is the ability to set thread tension is . . well . . not exactly "state of the art".  Expect to have to set and re-set this on your machine and don't assume that it wasn't properly re-conditioned.

[Vinculus]

20 minutes ago, HENDREFORGAN said:

Do you know I have no idea what the thread we use on our Frobana is?   Due to the fact that we use it on very heavy projects I'm not even sure it's not technically "butchers twine".   It's more than I mm diameter and a very heavy multiple twist.  It's uncoated but then with the Frobana having an oil bath fitted it's well "greased" in use.

About the only problem we do have with the machine - and we've used various grades of thread so we know it's not relating to one size - is the ability to set thread tension is . . well . . not exactly "state of the art".  Expect to have to set and re-set this on your machine and don't assume that it wasn't properly re-conditioned.

I got in touch with Power-Shoe.com and they were happy to set me up with the correct thread, so I've sorted that out. I think it's Irish linen, but unsure of the ply number. Hopefully it's pretty thick. I like my stitches to be a little bulky, since I make heritage work boots with double row stitchdown construction. I am going to try various other threads I have as well, just to see if it accepts braided waxed thread, for example.

And believe me, I know all about fiddling with tension on machinery such as this. On my Junker SD28 I have added an extra 3 springs to the spool rod where the top thread tension is set to get it tight enough, and removed the bobbin tension adjustment altogether to stitch with thick thread through very thick/compact materials. That's half the fun and all of the frustration with vintage equipment 

Really looking forward to getting this machine and taking my time to getting comfortable with it. I ordered 20 needles for it, so I can afford a few major screw ups as well, haha.

[HENDREFORGAN]

I think "Irish linen" would be a good way of describing whatever old and unlabelled stock we've put in our Frobana and the jobs we set it doing also require a heavy stitch, indeed it's a form of top stitching that this machine seems to produce nicely.  We don't use the optional cutting blade on ours that would otherwise help hide that . . presumably you would do the same yourself then?

The other thread we replied to some time ago was answered by somebody "Down Under" who both knew this machine and may have made or sourced parts for it.  http://leatherworker.net/forum/profile/71895-rockyaussie/

[Vinculus]

1 hour ago, HENDREFORGAN said:

I think "Irish linen" would be a good way of describing whatever old and unlabelled stock we've put in our Frobana and the jobs we set it doing also require a heavy stitch, indeed it's a form of top stitching that this machine seems to produce nicely.  We don't use the optional cutting blade on ours that would otherwise help hide that . . presumably you would do the same yourself then?

The other thread we replied to some time ago was answered by somebody "Down Under" who both knew this machine and may have made or sourced parts for it.  http://leatherworker.net/forum/profile/71895-rockyaussie/

The channel cutting blade cuts at the bottom of the material, correct? I am actually not sure if I'll use it. Countersinking the thread often helps with longevity of the sole stitches, but then again sometimes a good tight stitch countersinks into a rubber sole without any channeling as well. I guess I will give everything a try before settling on anything. My niche customer market should be happy about sample boots at cheaper prices at least, haha.

After reading the thread you mentioned I am very surprised to find that they still make these machines in the updated F42 version. Wow.

[alexitbe]

On 09/03/2017 at 10:00 PM, Vinculus said:

I got in touch with Power-Shoe.com and they were happy to set me up with the correct thread, so I've sorted that out. I think it's Irish linen, but unsure of the ply number. Hopefully it's pretty thick. I like my stitches to be a little bulky, since I make heritage work boots with double row stitchdown construction. I am going to try various other threads I have as well, just to see if it accepts braided waxed thread, for example.

And believe me, I know all about fiddling with tension on machinery such as this. On my Junker SD28 I have added an extra 3 springs to the spool rod where the top thread tension is set to get it tight enough, and removed the bobbin tension adjustment altogether to stitch with thick thread through very thick/compact materials. That's half the fun and all of the frustration with vintage equipment 

Really looking forward to getting this machine and taking my time to getting comfortable with it. I ordered 20 needles for it, so I can afford a few major screw ups as well, haha.

Hello,

Did you ever manage to find out the size of the thread you ordered and how is it work?  I have just bought a Frobana and need to order some thread.  I was think of 1.5mm diameter to fill the 2mm holes nicely, however I am not sure what size the should be in Tex.  i have seen tex 270 recommended for 200 nm needles, but don't know what diameter that is.  I have some thread already, which is about 0,75 mm and it looks really small in the hole left by the needle.

 

Can you tell me of your recent experiences with this machine?

 

Thanks

Alex