What shears should I use to strip off old fleecing?

[Wizcrafts]

I just took in an old saddle for refleecing with synthetic fleece. I used a Hyde knife, head knife and 10" scissors to cut and peel off the old wool fleece. Unfortunately, one side was too well bonded to the leather liner and took off chunks of leather under the wool and skin. The removal part of the job is taking too long and I will be losing money on this one. I also cut a lot of the linen thread holding the fleece to the skirts and inside leather lining, which has to be resewn assembled.

Does anybody use electric sheep shears to shave off the old fleece on saddles, rather than slicing it off with knives? If so, what brand or source would you recommend to me for very occasional use? I just need to take it down to the flesh to reline it.

Don't tell me to charge more for refleecing. I figured that out today while struggling to remove the wool. The price was agreed to and prepaid.

[Goldshot Ron]

You've found out that the time consuming part of this job is taking off the old wool.  I have not found a quick and easy way; but, the best way for me has been to slowly remove the stitching on the top side by pulling up a loop and pulling the top thread through the bobbin thread,  Once you get in rhythm it's not fast, but faster than cutting the stitch and removing each little hanging piece of thread from the stitch holes prior to sewing.  After removing the stitching now pull off the wool.  This sounds like where you are at at this time.  You have to remove the old wool so that you can properly align and re-glue the skirt filler pieces under the wool.  These pieces may have come loose and will affect your stitching on the new fleece.  And, prior to attaching the new fleece you need to clean and condition the skirts.  I recently refleeced a custom saddle that the original maker had contact cemented the wool to the skirts.  This was a real pain when removing the wool.  So I recommend gluing the fleece on with rubber cement.  Good luck, Ron

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks Ron! I appreciate your advice. Do you have any opinion on using electric animal shears to shave the wool? Does anybody do this?

[bruce johnson]

If you shave the wool you still have to remove the leather. An old guy taught me to use either an old style loop blade compass groover or even better - an old free hand stitch groover/patent leather tool/gum tool. Run it over the top stitches to cut them off or severely weaken them. It won't work with a hole int eh bar type groover, the hole will pack up.  pull on the woolskin underneath and almost all of the tags will pull through. Clean fast job with little or no individual stitch picking. Rubber cemented skirts should peel right off. If they are contact cemented, sometimes a little heat from a hair dryer or fast fanning with a low setting on a heat gun will warm and soften the bond and the woolskin will pull free.  

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I do like Bruce does, using a patent leather tool to cut the stitches and then pull everything off. Really saves time picking stitches, although I've had some saddles where the thread was so rotten that it broke pulling the back off and there was still thread left in the holes.  I feel that part of a reline job includes replacing the plugs. At least 9 out of 10 saddles that I get for relining, the skirts need re-blocking because they're all curled under.  You can't do a decent job on these w/out replacing the plugs.  At the top of my list of pet peeves is a sloppy relining job, and I see plenty of them come through.  The skirts should look like new when you're done; re-blocked, edges perfect and even just like if you were building new, stitches back in the old holes if at all possible, completely cleaned and oiled, new strings and lug straps if it has them.  I do use an electric sheep shears to trim the wool, but only after the new fleece has been stitched on, to bevel the wool back from the skirt edges.  As referenced above, you do not merely trim the old fleece off, you have to remove whatever backing it's attached to, whether it's fabric or hide.  I charge $350 for a reline, and honestly I probably need to go up.  When a customer tells me that so and so does it for $200, I ask, ok, what does that include?? and then proceed to explain everything that's involved in doing the job properly.  I've seen lots of those $200 jobs; there's one in the shop right now and I have that saddle where nobody can see it, because I don't want anyone thinking I did it!  Since you already bid the job, you can do as little or as much as you are happy with, but one thing is for sure, if you do it right, you might not be happy with the money, but you'll be happy with the job and you WON'T underbid one again! Good luck Wiz.

[Squilchuck]

I have tried to use the smallest loop of my Osborne compass groover for this task, but it shaves leather off the side of the groove, especially with old worn skirts. This doesn't happen with the patent leather tool?  I suppose you use a #1 groove or is #2 best for the large thread used for skirts?  -- John

[oltoot]

My old trick: Find a loose, unadhered spot somewhere in the middle and tear the lining off and outward; when you get to the stitching you can cut more easily from the inside with a sharp pointed knife and then pick stitches. I have tried various tricks to pull the top thread or bobbin thread (will depend on how the maker's machine was adjusted) but have found that trying to start there  will often prolong the exercise while just waiting to see and then going with the flow works better. If the old lining is already torn, use it.

[Wizcrafts]

I'm learning a lot from my query about relining fleece on saddles. Thanks guys!

My main takeaway to this point in time is that a reline must be more than remove and replace. It will involve a lot of time and possibly new leather on the bottom of the skirts. I hate to think of it, but it almost sounds like disassembling the skirts from the saddle may be the best way to do this kind of job.

Whatever the outcome of this job, the next one will be quoted at least triple what I charged, if not more, or I won't undertake it.

I forgot to mention that I was only allowed one full week to do the reline and other strap work on another saddle. The customers are leaving on a cross-country trek on their horses and a mule on May 2.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Removing the skirts from the saddle is an absolute necessity to do a reline.  My normal process:  Remove skirts. If they are very dirty, I might even do a pre-clean first as lots of dirt and grit will play hell on my groover.  Using my patent leather groover, I cut the stitches from the top side.  This doesn't ALWAYS work, but most of the time it does.  Remove fleece and plugs from the skirts.  Then, completely clean and very often, wet the skirts wet enough to block them back out and remove any curl.  I will use weights to do that, and sometimes have to get kind of creative.  I will apply some oil after the skirts have been flattened back out but before they are completely dry.  I may apply another coat after they are dry, but at this point I don't want too much oil on them or it may migrate through and make gluing difficult.  Then I cut and install new plugs, just as if I were building a new set of skirts.  Install strings and lug straps OR re-sew skirt pockets to the skirts. Any repairs needed to the skirts themselves is generally done before gluing in the plugs. Sometimes an inskirt rigging needs major rebuilding.  After the plugs are in place, I glue in the sheepskin, oversize, to allow for an even edge after sewing and trimming.  Be very careful to sew in the old holes unless thee were already ripped through, in which case you'll have to make a new stitch line.  On some restorations, the leather won't handle machine sewing in the old holes.  I then either handsew or make a new stitch line, depending on clients preference.  After stitched, I trim the plugs (they were left over size as well) and the sheepskin, and then finish the edges as I would on a new build.  Then I bevel the fleece bag from the edges of the skirt, using my sheep shears and a roaching scissors to finish up.  After that, I then apply one or more coats of oil, depending on how dry the skirts were to start with.  Then reassemble.  That is just a very superficial description of the process, and to do a thorough job, you'll have quite a few hours in it.  A week would really be pushing it for me, because there is drying time for both skirts and plugs.  Tow weeks makes me a lot more comfortable.

[Wizcrafts]

 

Removing the skirts from the saddle is an absolute necessity to do a reline.  My normal process:  Remove skirts. If they are very dirty, I might even do a pre-clean first as lots of dirt and grit will play hell on my groover.  Using my patent leather groover, I cut the stitches from the top side.  This doesn't ALWAYS work, but most of the time it does.  Remove fleece and plugs from the skirts.  Then, completely clean and very often, wet the skirts wet enough to block them back out and remove any curl.  I will use weights to do that, and sometimes have to get kind of creative.  I will apply some oil after the skirts have been flattened back out but before they are completely dry.  I may apply another coat after they are dry, but at this point I don't want too much oil on them or it may migrate through and make gluing difficult.  Then I cut and install new plugs, just as if I were building a new set of skirts.  Install strings and lug straps OR re-sew skirt pockets to the skirts. Any repairs needed to the skirts themselves is generally done before gluing in the plugs. Sometimes an inskirt rigging needs major rebuilding.  After the plugs are in place, I glue in the sheepskin, oversize, to allow for an even edge after sewing and trimming.  Be very careful to sew in the old holes unless thee were already ripped through, in which case you'll have to make a new stitch line.  On some restorations, the leather won't handle machine sewing in the old holes.  I then either handsew or make a new stitch line, depending on clients preference.  After stitched, I trim the plugs (they were left over size as well) and the sheepskin, and then finish the edges as I would on a new build.  Then I bevel the fleece bag from the edges of the skirt, using my sheep shears and a roaching scissors to finish up.  After that, I then apply one or more coats of oil, depending on how dry the skirts were to start with.  Then reassemble.  That is just a very superficial description of the process, and to do a thorough job, you'll have quite a few hours in it.  A week would really be pushing it for me, because there is drying time for both skirts and plugs.  Tow weeks makes me a lot more comfortable.

Do you ever give lessons to newbies in the saddlery business?

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

 

Do you ever give lessons to newbies in the saddlery business?

I haven't yet. I get lots of requests from locals, but usually it's " Maybe I could work for you and you could teach me how to do this stuff."  In other words, pay them to learn:-)  I imagine someday, if I live long enough, I will have to think about what will happen to my business when I'm done and perhaps then think about taking an apprentice.  I was hoping one of my three boys would take an interest, and although they have at different times all helped me in the shop, none of them wants to take over.   But when I see someone struggling on this forum, especially someone who contributes as freely as you do, I'm not opposed to giving a little advice.  And honestly, I'm not yet to the point (and maybe never will be) where I would be above spending a couple weeks with someone who could give ME some lessons.  I don't think a person is ever too old or too wise to learn something new.

[Wizcrafts]

 

I haven't yet. I get lots of requests from locals, but usually it's " Maybe I could work for you and you could teach me how to do this stuff."  In other words, pay them to learn:-)  I imagine someday, if I live long enough, I will have to think about what will happen to my business when I'm done and perhaps then think about taking an apprentice.  I was hoping one of my three boys would take an interest, and although they have at different times all helped me in the shop, none of them wants to take over.   But when I see someone struggling on this forum, especially someone who contributes as freely as you do, I'm not opposed to giving a little advice.  And honestly, I'm not yet to the point (and maybe never will be) where I would be above spending a couple weeks with someone who could give ME some lessons.  I don't think a person is ever too old or too wise to learn something new.

I pretty much learn something new every day. I have a lot of interests and an expensive N scale hobby that are never ending learning experiences.

FWIIW: The fake fur is glued onto the saddle waiting for sewing and trimming when I come back to the shop on Thursday.

[Ken Nelson]

Wiz,

I have done some saddle maker schools.  I usually figure a month as a mininium and if I teach someone, they will know my way of doing it and there are a lot of other ways of building saddles.  I let a couple of young guys do apprenticeships in my shop in New Mexico.  One was there part time for a year and a half, partly because he did not have a shop at that time.  The other was there, part time, for  one school year.  I would do a repair school pretty reasonably.

If you do or if anyone goes to take schooling from anyone, be sure the person knows how to build a good saddle.

Try to find out if the person is a "teacher",  some are and some aren't.

And that is just my 2 cents worth.