Gritzner Frobana Outsole Machine

[alexitbe]

Hello Everyone,

 

Due to replies on another thread i thought i would show you my recently acquired (yesterday), Gritzner outsole machine. It sewed perfectly at the place i bought it from, but all was not as it seemed...

Front and side pictures are below.

The only problem seems to be that i do not have tension control in either the upper or lower thread.  See pictures below. I think there are two reasons for this.  The reason given by Jimi, which is my thread is to thin for the particular shuttle See the large groove in the shuttle. Also the fact that the shuttle spring does not seem to fit flat to the shuttle, which i have labelled A and B. 

Large groove in shuttle

 

Lastly the upper thread tension mechanism seems to be split in two. Firstly you can reduce the ease of the spool turning  directly and secondly there is a round pulley, which I am not sure how it should work, but it stud or bolt is broken. The bolt had been glued with hot pistol glue and was not at first obvious, so I am trying to find a replacement.

 

Can someone tell me what I am missing here?

Cheers

Alex

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by alexitbe

[alexitbe]

I am tempted to buy a new shuttle spring as sold here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Shuttle-Hook-Thread-Spring-Singer-45K-DURKOPP-61-62-Sewing-Machine-Closed-Frame-/272392847123?hash=item3f6be0ff13:g:z7EAAOSwLF1X6v3a

 

However, i guess it might not help much if the shuttle itself is for larger thread.

 

I also noticed that the thread does not fill the hole of the stitches and so i guess this supports Jimi's idea.   I have a size 5 needle, but there is a number 4 stamped in the front, where the race goes.  I believe this is incorrect and I must buy a number 4 needle.  Is this correct?  Is there simply a difference in diameter between the two needles sizes or do other dimensions change?...

 

In anycase, thank you for taking the time to read...

Cheers

Alex

 

D

[sandyt]

Alex,

On the spool tension asembly I would change the order. Nut, small ring, spring, big ring. 

On the second tension asembly, you are missing the spring. The thread should be wrapped around the disc once or twice. The disc should rotate while feeding thread.

Your thread indeed looks pretty thin. This machine is disigned for heavy thread.  I am using a number 4 needle, but it's still very thick. 2mm.  So you still have to use heavy thread.

I don't know if the number in the front plate should correspond with the needle size. Sounds logical though. I was thinking the same, as mine has number 5 but I am using number 4 needle.

Sandy. 

[Constabulary]

Alex, check with ottobock-Josamerica for a new tension unit stud, they still run the Frobana type machines:

https://www.ottobock-josamerica.com/de/produkten/75-20-2910-0.html?Itemid=266&___store=de

what is the inner diameter of the tension pulley - I probably have another idea of how to fix it...

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

It requires cutting, drilling and / or taping thread but maybe you can rework this 29K stud.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/store/413D-ADJUSTING-NUT-SIDE-SINGER-29K

or this one:

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/store/A113F-TENSION-STUD-SIRUBA-NEW-STYLE

But you may need the matching tension nut as well since the threading could be different.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Constabulary

[alexitbe]

Hi Constab,

 

Thanks for your input.  I am able to tap a thread so you idea is a good one.  I will measure the internal diameter of pulley to make sure.

 

I am still considering buying a 45k shuttle off alibaba, as they are cheap enough.. If my hammering of  shuttle spring has not brought better contact with the shuttle.  I would then leave this shuttle alone and use only for very thick thread.

 

Thank you very much everyone for your help and suggestions.

Cheers

Alex

PS Constab, I have just ordered some number 4 (200 nm) needles from your WDN source you gave on another thread.  I will wait and see

[Constabulary]

if you cut it here you can even use the pulley on the old stud - maybe the SIRUBA stud could work then

if you cut it here the pulley could spin on the 29K stud - on my 29K stud measures 8.5mm (its from CS)

lets hope the FROBANA stud is not hardened.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Constabulary

[alexitbe]

The internal diameter of the pulley is 7.35 mm.  Consider the Singer part ordered...

 

The thread on the shorter side of the stud is unf 1/4 - 28... But I have just forgotten the other measurement of the thread on the other side.

 

The Frobana stud is not hardened.  I am drilling in to it later on today... hopefully...

 

Thanks once again for your help Constab.

 

Cheers

Alex

Edited July 3, 2017 by alexitbe

[sandyt]

Where excactly are you living in Europe? If you happen to live in driving distance from Eindhoven (Holland, Belgium boarder) there is a Frobana for sale in 'not working order'. Maybe it could be interesting for you. Depends on where you live ofcourse.

Sandy. 

[alexitbe]

Hi Sandy,

 

I live in what is the old DDR, near Leipzig and I dare not drive on the wrong side of the road...

 

To let people know, I have seen a reference to AFT International GmbH  having spares for Frobana. I have been in contact with them today and this is not the case.

 

Cheers

Alex

Edited July 3, 2017 by alexitbe

[sandyt]

Haha, too bad.

Somehow your name made me think maybe you are from Belgium. Alex IT Belgium or whatever...

It's a 2 hour drive for me. In Holland we consider this as way too far for most people, haha. 

Sandy. 

[jimi]

17 hours ago, alexitbe said:

Can someone tell me what I am missing here?

Cheers

Alex

A felt or leather disk between part 2 and 3 similar to the 45k setup.

Alex... you are FROBANA LAND!!! there must be loads of these kicking around in germany?? that is where they are all coming from?  i see very little (old type) machines outside of germany for sale. there is a seller on ebay selling 6 for 450 so that is  75  a piece. he might sell you that stud you need?? or even a shuttle??

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Frobana-Doppelmaschine-6-Stuck-/292163009974?hash=item440645bdb6:g:V3kAAOSwRXRZRowU

when i was referring to the shuttle and race in the other post it was for your question about if a 45k would fit, so it was showing the cheap shuttle in the race in the frobana, it would just need grinding like sandyt did. well done sandyt .

 

[alexitbe]

Thanks for the response Jimi... Its nice to know how the pulley should be set-up.

 

I might be in the land of Frobana, but half of these guys are dreaming when it comes to the price....  I will give that guy on ebay a message and see where we get...Although i have already ordered the Singer 29K stud to drill in to the original..

 

I have not yet ordered the shuttle, as i was hoping to be able to bend the spring in.  A quick solution, I think would be to put a small steel shim underneath and i think i will try that whilst i wait.

 

Does anyone use the bath, as mine is broken and i wonder if I should replace it or forget about it?

 

Is 1mm thread the minimum size people use for their machines?  Is there a recommended size?

 

Last question   Is there a way to reduce how far the feed dog comes up?  Its damaging the underside of the leather and i would liek to reduce this.. It has very impressive teeth so I guess i will not be able to eliminate it..

 

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Alex

Edited July 3, 2017 by alexitbe

[Constabulary]

I have a German PDF manual but its too large to attach here - send me your email address by PN please

[sandyt]

The tension plate is very thin. Hard to work on and holding the shape. Maybe you could fil the groove with solder for now? Or solder a thin steel shim on it?

I don't think a lot of people use the waxpot. I don't. I did use the petroleum (?) heater for the race and shuttle the other day though. It worked realy realy great with waxed thread in the bobin. Realy smooth stitch. But I probably used the wrong fuell. Black soot everywhere! Black stitches, haha.... too bad because it sewed great. I could back off the top tension big time.

Thread size depends on the needle size. That determines your thread size more or less.

The feed dog of the frobana/gritzner is tiny! So it has to be as agressive as possible to feed consistantly. You could make one yourself. It's a small simple piece. Maybe you could make it as big and wide as possible?? Never tried it myself. 

Sandy. 

[sandyt]

I just read in Constabulary's manual he sent me (thanks!), I have to use spiritus in the heater. I used lamp oil, ahum.....

Have to give it another go soon.

Sandy. 

[jimi]

Yes alex, the feed dog is raised and lowered with that key you have on the chain on the right hand side.  

[jimi]

If anyone wants a copy of the manual in English let me know. its too big to upload in PDF or i dont know how to??

Edited July 4, 2017 by jimi

[alexitbe]

15 hours ago, jimi said:

Yes alex, the feed dog is raised and lowered with that key you have on the chain on the right hand side.  

Oh, that's so obvious now... I am a little embarrased...

Cheers

Alex

[alexitbe]

Ok, so I found an old sewing machine stud and decided not to wait for the singer.  I had the spring to go with it and I drilled and tapped as Constab suggested.  i have added a new metal washer (drilled out to 7.5 mm) and a homemade felt disc.  It has made this part of the tension control so much smoother and now the pulley actually rotates as it should do...  I am very happy...  Incidentally the thread on this particular stud was M6 fine 0.75.  I wonder if that is common on domestic machines, which ti came off.

[jimi]

great job Alex, well done. your getting nearer to the goal!

[Darren Brosowski]

These machines - in my experience - are very sensitive to tension!

 

[alexitbe]

Hi Darren,

 

Thanks for your response... I have fixed the upper tension issues and am now looking at the shuttle tension problems.

I will order a new shuttle spring and a cheap shuttle alternative from alibaba as Jim suggested.

However, first I will buy some thicker thread and see if the tension spring manages to make some contact.  I am thinking Gutterman Mara 11 (tex265), which says its suitable for 180 nm needles.  If you have any other alternives then I would be happy to try them.

 

Cheers

ALex

Edited July 9, 2017 by alexitbe
numerical error

[LumpenDoodle2]

Enjoying following this thread.  

Great to see people working out ways round the problems of older or more specialised machines.

[alexitbe]

So following SandyT's advice I ordered some thicker thread.   I ordered some polyamide thread (Amanda Ares) size 6 (564tex) and now the shuttle tension is working and is adjustable.  However, the upper thread is not pulling up through the leather.  The website recommends it for needle size 180-220, but I don't think is correct. From the website:

• thread	Thread structure	Breaking force no less than	Recommended nedles	Applications	Beams	Number of pcs in a pack
  Ares 20	470 dtex x 3 141 tex	8600 cN	140-160	For sewing shoes, structural seams	1000m	10
  Ares 10	940 dtex x 3 282 tex	19000 cN	180-200	For ornamental seams	1000m	4
  Ares 8	940 dtex x 4 376 tex	25000 cN	180-200	For ornamental seams	600m	4
  Ares 6	940 dtex x 6 564 tex	34000 cN	180-200	For sewing heavy technical fabrics, leather and ornamental seams.	400m	4

 

So now I have ordered polyamide size 8 (940 dtex x 4 376 tex)  and I hope this will be more suitable for my size 220 nm needle.  We shall see..

 

Thanks for the help so far... We are getting there.

 

For anyone interested in this thread, the website is here.  I got the ares 6 for about 15 euros for 400 m.

http://www.amandathreads.com/industrial-threads-ares.html

Edited July 15, 2017 by alexitbe