Season 4 in my saddle

[Billy H]

Thank you mudman

[Ken Nelson]

I am curious,  it seems like a lot of people any more are very concerned about the weight of ranch type saddles.  Throughout the last half of the50's,  60's, 70's, 80's and into the mid 90's  I do not remember this being an issue with ranch saddles.  I understand most people ride a lot different than they did when I was young and a lot different type of horses.   I understand most people do not ride from can't see in the morning until can't see at night 7 days a week anymore.  The old cold blood horses of the era ending sometime in the early 70's is gone. I haven't seen one of those old 16+ hand horses, weighing 1300+ #'s for a long time, with a rough head and a lot of feather on his legs.  I do realize almost no one ropes hard and fast any more, which was the order of the day back "in the day". Stick a full 7/16" X 28' nylon on a big cow or a bull on the fight or jerk down an 800# cow  running full bore, you pretty well take the stretch out of everything.  And you have made a commitment and a pretty serious one.  I wonder how many people keep 7 to 10 head of horses rode down HARD these days. I wonder if the 25 to 32 # saddles  a lot of people are building now would have held up then.  Back in the day,  Them old "made" cowboys would not ride a light saddle.  They were afraid of them.  Were we all paranoid back then?  But it has changed a lot and I probably need to adapt my attitude.   I had 2 saddles fail 40+ years ago and worry about one of mine failing someone.

I don't know if I am being overly cautious.   Just wondering.  Ken

[Goldshot Ron]

Ken,

I don't know your age, nor the area where you were raised; but being raised in Southern California, most of the people that I've met have been mainly recreational riders.  They don't need heavy saddles, and the only jerking down that they do is on the cinch.  In the last 65 years, I've met some ranch riders that had to rope a steer for doctoring, and young fellows that like to play cowboy (even those young fellows have grown up and use chutes more and more).  I've worked with packers that tow mule strings, and they use lighter saddles, especially in the Eastern Sierras where less weight is good.  A well built saddle doesn't have to be 40+ pounds.  As a Back Country Horseman member, I see the aging of America when it comes to horse people.  As we age that old heavy saddle has to give way to lighter saddles if we are still to enjoy the horse experience.

I think the experience that you describe is that of people who make their living on horseback.  Running cows doesn't have to be on horseback any longer.  Heck, in my area, there's a family that have been running cows for over 125 years.  One of the daughters rides her mountain bike to check on the stock (through areas where only a mtn. goat can go).   I just hope horses stay around a little longer, even if people are using endurance saddles.  People can still buy good roping saddles, but I think the trend is toward lighter and more comfortable recreational saddles.

Ron

[Billy H]

Ken and Ron, I think both of you bring up good points.

Back in the 70's , 80s and even the 90's it seemed saddles where heavier.  Saddle trees a lot of the time had double rawhide covering, 3 inch full double stirrup leathers were pretty much the only thing put into cowboy saddles. Skirts I thought were bigger and fenders I thought were bigger also. It may not jump out at you - but each one of those parts of the build start adding up to more weight.

Skirt rigged saddle were not  common place as they are today in my opinion, that also is a weight factor.  Even doing fully covered leather stirrups or metal covered stirrups add weight to the saddle.

Billy

[cowboycolonel]

Well, I haven't been around as long as you guys seem to have been, but I'll throw in my opinion -- not that you asked for it.  My first saddle weighed nearly 60 pounds.  Being new to the riding world, I thought that was just the way it was.  Then I started looking around at some of the whys and wherefores, and then reached my own conclusions.  I don't ride all day every day, but there are many days that I have spent all day ( more than 8 hours) in the saddle.  And I've had to lug my own saddle around to different parts of the country (and Mexico), so when I made my saddle (as opposed to trail saddles for little old blue-haired ladies) I studied up on what needs to be stout and what doesn't.  The saddle I ride now weighs just over 34 pounds.  It has seen seven good years of work, including roping my share of about 3,000 calves per year.  It was made stout, for all day work, and as light as I could get away with.  As you can see, my manhood isn't tied up in hauling (or making my horse haul) a saddle that's primary virtue is how much it weighs.  Naturally I take care of my gear and I watch for cracks, rips, tears, and loos stitches.  That said, my saddle was painstakingly made to exactly what I wanted -- full custom, so I could get away with some things that you never could in a production model.  I like the weight, the sturdiness, and would compare mine to anyone's for wear per workload placed on it.  Just my humble input.

[Billy H]

This Wade saddle came in at 32 lbs.

I am pretty sure that most of it's life will be enjoyed on trails and cattle drives but would  certainly rope just fine at a Branding.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Billy H
Add pic

[Ken Nelson]

I believe I have been misunderstood here. MOST people that ride and own horses today have not and will never use a saddle hard.  Therefore, they do not have the concerns of strength or durability I mentioned in my previous post.   In fact, for recreational riders to ride one of my saddles would be like buying a semi-tractor to haul the kids to school a half mile away. 

I can see why a recreational rider would not want to deal with a heavy "cowboy" saddle.  Why would he or she.   However, about 10 years ago, a woman riding  a saddle I built, pulled a horse off of  a lady in the high country West of Buffalo WY.   The horse lost its footing went down and was pinned under a down tree, on top of the lady and she had a compound fractures above and below the knee.  Three of her companion's saddles failed trying to pull her horse off of her.  If they had been riding good trail saddles, on horses better broke and more experienced and had more knowledge of how to go about helping their companion, they probably could have got the job done without a cowboy  (that happened to be a woman).

There is a difference between roping steers in an arena that weigh 500#s, give or take, and are pretty well halter broke or dragging calves at a branding and roping a big cow on the fight, knocking her down on a saddle that has been wet for two weeks in the snow or rain.  Try roping 5 or 6 year old broncs out of most light weight saddles. 

I am not saying  there is anything wrong with pleasure, trail or any other kind of saddle.  I just feel there are a lot of people that are using some terms mistakenly.   I have done work on some handmade trail saddles that were stout enough to rope medium weight cattle out of.  I have worked on roping saddles that weighed 40+ pounds I wouldn't rope a 700 # steer out of.

If you haven't worked on some of those big ranches that get pretty western, or have built for the men and women that are doing that kind of work,  you might not want to represent the saddles you build as being a sure enough rough and tumble ranch saddle. 

I do not look down on the makers who build receational, trail saddles or the people that ride them.  I wouldn't take an order for a cutting or barrel saddle.  I don't know enough about them to do a customer a service stumbling around in the dark trying to figure it out.

Just my opinion, and I hope I did not offend anyone.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ken Nelson

[cowboycolonel]

You couldn't offend me if you tried, so no worries here.  And you are correct.  Team roping is an entirely different discussion.  I'm talking about branding and open country work -- NOT arena "work". No controlled environment and you do what needs doing. 

It would be interesting to note just how those three saddles "failed".  I'd guess the rigging was pulled out, which suggests in-skirt rigging or lightweight Dee rigging.  I prefer flat plate rigging, which I'd bet is what your saddle had.  Enlighten me, please.

 

[Ken Nelson]

It was reported to me that the horn pulled out of one of the saddles,  the fork pulled out of one and the third snapped both bars and jerked the inskirt rigging out of the right side.    Now if those people had been ridin "broke" horses, hooked all 3 of the horses onto the downed horse and pulled together, they probably could have achieved what they needed to get done to help their friend without tearing up their junk saddles.    A well made quality saddle is just that.  Rather it be a ranch saddle that will be used extremely hard in less than ideal conditions,  a pleasure saddle, trail saddle, whatever.  I believe a saddle, any saddle,  should have good enough  materials and tree, good enough craftsmanship and good enough design to  stand up to an emergency like the one described above. 

Of course a weekend rider does not need a saddle of the same specs as a cowboy pulling wet saddle blankets off his string 7 days a week in all kinds of weather.  And because an idea is new does not mean it is wrong or right.   I think if you are actually a qualified saddle maker you will be able to  look at a new idea and pretty well know rather it will work.  One thing about horses,  everybody that has one is an expert.   The guy that has had 2 or 3 in a lifetime thinks he has the answers and probably knows more than the ranch cowboy that has rode them by the hundreds.   And there are cowboys out there that have rode several hundred or more, and made a living on them getting cattle work done on them. they ride whatever someone "runs under them" and do a days work on them to boot.  They have to understand saddle fit although they cannot talk angles, and all the scientific jargon floating around now a days.  It is interesting, It seems like the more information that is available,  the more problems arise.

A lot of us self-taught ourselves how to build saddles.  Some of us went and worked under an established GOOD saddlemaker and perfected our skills.   Over 16 years building full time and I am still learning.   I think making a living  a horseback on ranches for over 45 years probably taught me something and most certainly gave me a lot of prejudges.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ken Nelson

[Horsemint]

4 hours ago, Ken Nelson said:

I can see why a recreational rider would not want to deal with a heavy "cowboy" saddle.  Why would he or she.   However, about 10 years ago, a woman riding  a saddle I built, pulled a horse off of  a lady in the high country West of Buffalo WY.   The horse lost its footing went down and was pinned under a down tree, on top of the lady and she had a compound fractures above and below the knee.  Three of her companion's saddles failed trying to pull her horse off of her.  If they had been riding good trail saddles, on horses better broke and more experienced and had more knowledge of how to go about helping their companion, they probably could have got the job done without a cowboy  (that happened to be a woman).

I'm curious too, about the potential points of failure on their saddles. I don't have any experience saddlemaking other than the reading up I've done lately and the critical inspections I've been giving to my (not fancy) trail saddle. Which is to say, next to none. I have abused that particular saddle now and then dragging things/ponying obstinate horses off of it without incident, and once got it jammed under a bowed tree so hard that the plastic tree flexed a good half inch backwards. But having recently taken it apart for the educational value and seeing that it's held together with about four screws, some light riveted leather and a multitude of staples in a plastic tree, all of which has been subject to a lot of wear, I can't to trust it to do anything but stay on a horse (probably). It has in skirt rigging, which still seems tight at the rings but I imagine that's not much use when you're a couple stripped out screw holes from being forcibly parted from your mount...

I personally would rather have a saddle that can stand up to the occasional heavy duty moment if it has to, that's for sure, even though I do little resembling "hard work" on horseback.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Horsemint

[Josh Ashman]

Heck of a good looking saddle Billy! I have no doubt that it'd hold up to any use thrown at it. 

I'm curious in what world a rawhide covered wood tree with post horn, flat plate double rigging real sheepskin and what by all rights looks like top quality leather and hardware isn't considered sufficient. I certainly understand taking the stance that lightweight trail saddles may not be up to the task of serious or even semi serious work. That is a sentiment that I agree with and I suspect that most here do. What I don't understand is how the conversation came up while looking at your saddles which are not what I would consider to be light weight trail saddles at all. 

All the best, Josh

 

[Ken Nelson]

I did not say nor did I imply that Billy's saddle was not up to the task. and if you read my last several posts, you will notice I mention quality of materials, craftsmanship, design and execution.   Every part of a saddle from the tree, to the leather to the hardware is available in grades from total junk to #1 quality and I am sure you realize that.  because a saddle is said to have a rawhide covered tree does not mean it has a good tree in it.  the same is true of all materials.  Tell you what, You open up a Longhorn or Circle Y saddle built back in the late 60's or 70's and then open up a Longhorn or Circle Y saddle built within the last 5 years.  Open up a saddle anyone has built, be it a production saddle or handmade saddle and then compare it to a Billy Don Hogg or a Howard Counsil. A lot of cowboys and saddlemakers will tell you those two men set the standard for a long time.   By the way,  billy's saddle does look good,  nice lines, shows good craftsmanship and you are right the leather looks good.   For the style of saddle it is and shape and size of the skirts,  32#'s is pretty heavy.