Dennis Lane's Equine Profiling System

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Rod and I called Australia a few nights ago and talked to Dennis Lane (whom Rod has talked with before) for quite a while about what he has come up with from his years of collecting back shapes of horses. Dennis now has his system to a point where he is able to share it with others. He is asking for input from tree makers and saddle makers (to start with) regarding how they see the system working, as well as to get an even greater number of samples in the data base. Jeremiah Watt and Pete Gorrell are both planning to write articles for various magazines describing the system. In talking with Dennis he is wanting to get as many saddle makers as possible involved so that his ideas can be tested and maybe improved with the aim of helping the industry as a whole. In light of this, we are posting the following information, which Dennis has previewed and approved.

Dennis Lane is an Australian saddle maker and tree maker who has been self taught by necessity in a lot of areas, although he is always open to learn from wherever he can. He took a four week course in the early 90’s on making saddles and trees with Dale Harwood which is when he started building his own trees. He took the basics he learned then and has worked and figured and thought and expanded his knowledge and abilities ever since.

One of the things he has always asked from all his customers is back drawings of the horses the saddle will be used on. He now has thousands of these on file, and he has taken the time to classify these into different shapes and sizes. If it works the way he envisions, these classifications will be a very useful tool to easily communicate the size and shape of a horse from an owner to a saddle maker to a tree maker. It would eliminate the error factor in making back drawings to send to tree makers, not to mention the time to get them between people. It could be used by an owner to monitor the change in shape of a horse over time and in different stages of use. They could see the amount of difference in their horse’s shape from spring to fall, for example. This would help them in choosing the correct padding based on more than just a guess. And if this system does get used by enough people, it could become a way in which some sort of standardization could come to the saddle industry.

Dennis is the first one to say, “I haven’t come up with anything new. I have just worked to classify what we are all doing already.†And in one sense he is correct. Back drawings in all their various ways have been done for ages. There are all sorts of systems out there that have been developed to try to communicate back shape from an owner to a saddle maker and then to a tree maker. But what Dennis has been the first to do is get enough of this information together to be able to start to really classify the shapes in a useable format. He has then devised a very simple way for a horse owner to figure out what shape his horse has and give this information to a saddle maker. At this point, it sounds like it should work.

So what is it? Jeremiah Watt explains it well on his blog on his June 4th post. (There is a link on the Trees, Aussie Treemakers and Jeremiah Watt thread.) Simplified, it is a system of cards that are placed on a horse’s back at specific points to see which one fits. There are three places across the back that get checked, as well as the area under the bar where the rock is determined. The card numbers are then communicated to the saddle and tree makers, who know what shape those numbers correspond to.

Dennis has been working on this for himself for a lot of years and now has it to the point where he can’t see what more he can do by himself to make it better. He could keep it to use only for himself if he wanted, but he sees the benefit to the industry that could come if others wanted to use it. He wants to get input from other tree and saddle makers to see how his system works for other people, if there are holes that need to be fixed, or if there is anything that needs to be added or changed. He also sees the need to get even more information from other areas of the world to see what might be different from the range of horses in Australia that he has had the most access to.

The first question we as humans tend to ask is, “Why is he doing this? What’s in it for him?†In talking with Dennis, we are convinced that he really does want to help the saddle making industry, the riders and ultimately the horses themselves. If anything ever gets to the commercial stage from his idea (and if it works as well as we think it may, we hope that will happen) we feel that he deserves to get some benefit from his work. But that really is not his main intention. In asking him the question of why he is doing this, his response is “It is an itch that I had to scratch. I went over to the States with the idea that if nothing came of this, I would have had a good holiday and talked to a lot of nice people.†But he wanted to see if there was interest in going any further with his project. He says he has been amazed at the positive response from makers to what he has been doing. This response highlights the need that is there and the promise that this system holds to meet that need.

Dennis has taken this first of all to the tree makers who hand craft trees since they are a small group of people who would be the most likely to want such a system. He is sending out his basic patterns with permission to copy them (as carefully as possible to keep everything as consistent as possible) and send them to saddle makers as well to try out. He is asking for anyone using them to fill out a form with information on the horses – age, sex, breed, etc. – and the numbers of the shapes that fit them. That information can then go back to Dennis, and he can further refine his system if need be. He is asking for any ideas, suggestions, corrections, flaws, etc. from tree and saddle makers using his system to see if it really is consistent enough and easy enough to use to be a helpful tool in the saddle making industry. If so, then the next step would be to make it available to the industry in an affordable, easy to use format.

Anyone who is involving in the saddle industry knows that there is no standardization in saddle fit. The terms Quarter Horse, Semi Quarter Horse and Full Quarter Horse mean nothing in comparing between tree companies. Even the measurements used by hand made tree makers, while more consistent, don’t mean that two trees with the same specs from two makers will fit the same. This idea has the possibility of bringing some standardization to the industry. The system is not designed to tell you about size and shape of a saddle. It is designed to tell you about the size and shape of the horse. This is the beauty of it, and why we see that it may actually work in this industry made up of fairly “independent†people. Each tree maker can build his trees however he wants to in order to fit that type of horse, and any saddle can be described as being built to fit a certain type of horse. But communicating what that type is could be simplified and consistent if this system really works.

So if you are interested in this idea, there are a couple things you can do. If you get hand made trees, talk to your tree maker. He may already have the information and can give you his opinion on how he sees it working, and maybe send you the cards. You can also contact Dennis directly. You can Private Message us and we will give his e-mail address to you rather than post it here and risk Dennis getting severely spammed.

The information we are gaining from this system is not new. But it is a new way of more easily and consistently gaining that information. Rod and I (plus others Dennis has talked with) are going to give it a try along with any of our saddle maker customers who are interested, see how it works, and report back to Dennis. We think has the potential to make life a whole lot easier for all of us in the saddle making industry, and a whole lot better for the horses we ride as well.

[ClayB]

I have built a few saddes with the help of a couple local saddlemakers, but don't consider myself a saddle maker. One of the things I find most confusing/intimidating is how you choose the right tree. I took Pete Gorrell's saddle fit workshop a couple years ago, and in it he told us what to look for, and put several trees on a horse to show which fit and which didn't. Thing is, most people getting started aren't going to have several trees sitting around to try on a horse. What you are talking about seems like it would be such a useful tool especially for people starting out to learn more about what works and why when it comes to fitting a horse. I hope this project goes forward and something useful comes out of it.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you Rod and Denise for being part of this forum and helping to make some sense out of a complicated topic.

Clay

[bruce johnson]

Denise and Rod,

This system sounds like a pretty simple idea. It doesn't involve a large investment for the average guy to be able to communicate with a tree maker, which has been the drawback of most previous systems. It also appears to have a starting place for reference, which seems to be the biggest drawback of the bent wire models.

I was also interested to read in Jeremiah's blog that David Morris was traveling with Dennis Lane. I got to meet David and spent some time with him last year at Sheridan. David is one sharp cat, you come away smarter just by osmosis spending time around him.

Bruce Johnson

Edited June 21, 2007 by bruce johnson

[Johanna]

Just an idea...could you take pics of a horse and then use a computer to mark certain reference points. It would seem to me that superimposing a template with known parameters over the horse image would allow accurate measurements and degrees of angle to be configured. This post was made by a tech, not a saddler, but from the tech point of view, a program like that would be relatively easy to construct, and would still allow for the consistency desired in the industry. Just an idea...any thoughts?

Johanna

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Johanna,

In response to your question: First off, I know how much optical illusion exists when you look at curved shapes. Even looking at something from two different angles makes it look different at times. So I wonder how accurate pictures would be assessing specific shapes. I would think they would need to be taken in a very specific, consistent way for the information to be useful. I would also think that putting a card on a horse would give you a more accurate idea as to whether the two were the same shape or not compared to using pictures. But then, I am not a tech person and I don't know what computers can do with pictures either.

The big hold up in any system at all is getting a range of templates made that come from real horses. I don't know of anyone who has done the research to come up with anything as extensive as this before. Dennis has done what he could with the information he has gained. He is now asking saddle makers and tree makers (who should be well qualified in assessing back shapes and fitting trees, being as it is their profession) for feedback to see if what he has produced works for other people, if the horse shapes he has collected mainly from a wide range of horses is Australia fits in North America, and if there is anything people would improve in his system. He is willing and able to expand or change things if the range of templates he has don't work over here. So out of this world wide "experiment", so to speak, we hope that enough information will be gathered to get proper templates. Once that is set up, then "the sky is the limit" in how they may be applied.

[daviD A Morris]

Hi All,

This is my first time on a forum, so please be patient with me.

First of all I need to say a big thankyou to Bruce for those kind comments.

I'll take a few lines here to just introduce myself. I've been in saddlery since leaving school at age 16, back in 1976. Been making western saddles and saddle trees since 1983. I only make trees for my own saddles, at the moment, not for sale to other saddlers. 1992 I went off to university and gained a bachelors degree in engineering, not necessary (still can't spell!) to make saddle trees, but it helps. After finishing Uni I worked full time as an engineer for one year. Spent over 1500 hours using autoCad.

I've known Dennis Lane since the early 1990's and recognised his incredible talents for making saddles and trees. Dennis is one very dedicated man to saddle trees, and his production methods are very smooth and efficient. Dennis and I have learned a lot from each other over the years.

At the beginning of 2006 I convinced Dennis to travel with me to the USA and to visit the Sheridan trade show. Incidentally both of us had been to the USA before. Unfortunately due to other commitments he could not make the trip to the USA in 2006.

2007 I convinced Denis to come with me to the USA. Hank Statham another Ausie saddler also travelled with us, and wow did we have one good time! I just can't say enough good things about the Americans that I have met every time I have been there. The hospitality and friendliness just keeps me going back there. And next year I'll be there again.

I must congratulate and thank Rod and Denise for such an excellent job describing Dennis's card system. you have captured the true essence of it, where some other people have had a little trouble understanding. Yes it is way of measuring the horses, and it still leaves a lot of room for the opinions of the tree makers as to how a tree "should" fit. This is not a "prescriptive" system for designing the shape of the bottom of a saddle tree.

regards

DAM

[Guest]

Here is a thought from another techie....But let me preface it by saying up front that I know absolutely NOTHING about horses or saddles (except for the kind that go on motorcycles). I work at a very large company....we make diapers for children....

Ok I can hear you now...what does that have to do with saddles?

Well diapers are sold according to age and size of the child. When we were designing these product, we took measurements of tens of thousands of children.....and came up with a 3d model of the "average" child weighing from 20-25 pounds.....(just an example). Using a stereolithograph we could then "grow" a child (out of resin) and fit different designs to this "child" to see which one fit the best. It was a labor intensive process for a very cheap product. But what worked for a high volume cheap product could work for a low volume expensive one.....Just a thought and probably not worth posting but there ya go.

Dave

[barra]

Dave. All thoughts are worth posting. It kicks the thought processes into gear,

Barra

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Welcome to David from Australia. Good to have yet another tree maker on board, and looking forward to the input you will have here. (I don’t think osmosis works well across oceans, so you will probably have to type some stuff…)

Being both a saddle maker and a tree maker gives you a different perspective than almost everyone else on the board. I would be very interested to read any comments you might have on saddle fit responding to the discussion in the previous threads on Riggings and Bars and Bottoms in the Saddle Construction section of Saddle and Tack.

Looking forward to learning from and with you.

PS. If you thought the States was nice, just wait till you get a chance to go further north…

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Responding to Dave the diaper motorcycle leather man:

Your company’s research sounds similar in some ways to what is happening here. And different in some ways.

The similarities are the time consuming part of getting all the measurements and then being able to use the information constructively. As I understand it, you were first of all trying to figure out what shape an “average†baby was, and secondly you had to figure out what to do to fit him.

A difference is that we don’t want to fit just one “average†type horse that changes with growth. We are trying to find the average of a number of different shapes. The shapes tend to go along a spectrum, but there are a few types that don’t fit along the same line. And figuring out what all these shapes are, and what ones we can group to make an “average†is the really hard part. Horses vary too much for one tree shape to be used for all horses with just minor modifications, and the fit of a saddle is a bit more critical than the shape of a diaper. After all, the same saddle will be used day after day on the same horse and can cause long term physical damage if it doesn't fit, but if you did that with the same diaper… we won’t go there.

Figuring out the shapes is what Dennis has been working on for years. What he is doing now is like your company taking all that research and giving the results to all the other diaper companies in the world, saying, “Here, this is what we found about the shape of a child as he grows. Use it if you can. Design your diapers however you want to fit the models we built, and tell us if you find that the kids you fit are shaped like this. We will change our model if the measurements you send teach us something we haven’t learned before.†I doubt that would happen in diaper world. It’s astonishing that it is happening in saddle land. I guess that says something really positive about the saddle making industry – and especially about Dennis Lane.

Dennis is still collecting information to make his system better, but those of us who are considering using it will be going to the next stage (which Dennis has long since figured out for himself) – figuring out how to use the information we obtain in building good fitting trees and saddles. We may not need to change anything in what we are doing, but it will help tremendously in being able to communicate the shape we are trying to fit. Or we may find that there there are some shapes our current methods don't fit well. But it will be fun finding out.

It is hard to admit that the diaper industry could possibly be ahead of the saddle making industry in any way, but, then again, if we had the money that was spent on diapers every year, or even every week…

Not being a techie in any way - What is a stereolithograph and how does it work? In simple terms, please. (Very simple terms, please.) Any process that would make it easier to understand shapes is good to learn about. It is a very difficult, confusing area, but we are gaining ground. Thanks for your input.

[Guest]

Not being a techie in any way - What is a stereolithograph and how does it work? In simple terms, please. (Very simple terms, please.) Any process that would make it easier to understand shapes is good to learn about. It is a very difficult, confusing area, but we are gaining ground. Thanks for your input.

A stereolithograph is a machine that uses a CAD (computer aided drawing) file to drive a laser. The laser is directed at a pool of liquid resin. Where ever the laser beam strikes the liquid resin, it hardens the liquid into a solid shape......as the laser follows the contours of the CAD drawing, the product, in this case, a saddle tree, would grow from the pool of liquid. Watching one of these machines work is like watching a sci-fi movie. Seeing things grow from a liquid pool is very interesting.

With one of these machine it would be possible to use a 3D scanner to get the critical points on a specific horse and then produce an exact replica of the horse's back. The same thing could be done with the rider...and produce the perfect fit for every rider's posterior.

Isn't technology grand? Now all you need is $.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

David,

Thanks for your answer. Sounds very hi-tech, sci-fi, expensive and fun to watch. Amazing what you learn on a forum about leather working!

[David Genadek]

Ok Techies,

Here is the deal , horses don’t have collar bones to hold their sternum in the center of their two front legs. This isn’t much of a problem in the wild, but when we introduce the human into the equation it can have a dramatic effect on the shape of the horse. Keeping a horse straight is critical in all aspects of horsemanship. If they are crooked they are unable to utilize their ring of muscles, which is a whole set of muscles that allow them to use their body the way it was designed to work. If this system of muscles is not being utilized by the animal,their back shape can be greatly effected. So from a technical stand point you may say it is no big deal to capture a bunch of shapes and group them but in reality the shapes have been so corrupted by mans influence that it makes the problem seem overwhelming at times. I posted a link under Off Topic of pictures I recently took in the Pryor Mountains of wild mustangs. Here the potential for an accurate data set exsists but this is very rare!

From the stand point of building trees it puts one in a position of needing to learn a great deal about training techniques, dentistry, shoeing and biting so you can understand what the horses shape should be. Now there is no way any one person can become proficient enough in all these areas to figure the problem out. In the end it takes a team of people just to figure out if the shape you are trying to capture should be captured and included in a data set.

The other issue is the shape is constantly changing so what you really want to capture is a composite shape of the back in motion. I began getting a handle on this by making molds of backs in different positions from their I figured I could just cinch the casting material on and move the horse and this gave me the composite shape I was looking for. That experience now allows me to adjust a 3d model of a static back into a 3d model of a dynamic back. From there we can model the bar shapes.

I was just in Seattle working with my 3d guy who now has access to a 3d printer so I am awaiting my first printed prototypes of some new parts. This rapid protoyping technology should really speed up our development process and allow for more experimentation.

David Genadek

Just an idea...could you take pics of a horse and then use a computer to mark certain reference points. It would seem to me that superimposing a template with known parameters over the horse image would allow accurate measurements and degrees of angle to be configured. This post was made by a tech, not a saddler, but from the tech point of view, a program like that would be relatively easy to construct, and would still allow for the consistency desired in the industry. Just an idea...any thoughts?

Johanna