Need help making a holster

[wes]

Hello,

I am in the process of creating my first molded shoulder holster.

I have purchased a double shoulder, vegetable tanned hide from Siegel of California. It is 5-6 oz. and about .078 thick. Received it yesterday.

This holster is for a Beretta 951 which is a medium frame semi-auto pistol.

I will need help and advice on molding or boning this holster so that it has fine detail of this pistol. As far as I know this molding is the very first thing that I need to do in the process of creating this holster.

Is this correct or do I need to start with something else?

Hopefully the holster will look like the image below.

[Johanna]

I'm a little worried that the 5/6 oz weight isn't going to be heavy enough. Have you drawn your pattern? How much experience do you have doing this kind of thing? (I don't want anyone to leave steps out if this is very new to you) There are several ways to protect the gun while you wet form. Do you plan to handstitch? Do you have all your hardware yet? How are you fixed for tools? I can point you in the general direction, but there are a lot of more experienced makers than me here, and I hope they chime in.

Johanna

ps Welcome to Leatherworker.net!

[wes]

Johanna

Please do consider that anything that I say is totally wrapped in ignorance for I have absolutely no experience with leather work.

The reason that I chose 5-6 oz hide is that I am going to have to mold this holster by hand without the aid of presses. From all of the information that I have been able to glean from the custom holster makers sites, they use 3/4 or 4/5 weight hide for high definition molded holsters. To compensate for lack of stiffness I plan to install a tensioner screw and a thumb snap release. I have plenty of leather with which to fail. The double shoulder is quite large!

I have not drawn my pattern as yet because I do not know how much to allow for the leather stretching during molding. I figured that I would form the outline shape of the two halves of the holster after I have molded it to the pistol. If I need to create a pattern before beginning, I am afraid that I would be at a total loss.

I have considered using my pistol to which to mold my leather, but was worried about rust and corrosion. I have access to a manufacturing company which will make an aluminum form to the dimensions of my pistol. If there is a method in which I can use my pistol and still protect it while wet forming the leather, I am very willing to do so, as this will save me quite a bit of money that would be spent in the creation of the aluminum mold.

I have absolutely no tools. I hope that this is a good thing, as I can purchase only what I need, whenever I need. The cost of the tools is no concern, unless I have to buy some sort of machine. That would probably give me pause.

I will hand stitch this holster. I have an old upholstery sewing machine given to me by my mother, but I am concerned that I would let it get away from me and botch a job that I could have done by hand.

I have no hardware yet for this holster and plan to purchase it as it is required in the progress of this project. I know what it is that I want, but have not located all of the hardware yet.

Thanks for the quick response to my post on this forum. I am glad to see that this forum is not dead as so many specialty forums are on the 'net.

[Johanna]

Okay, Wes, you really are starting from scratch. Two good things- you are not intimidated by this project, and second, you have no "bad habits" to unlearn. The book that Greg mentioned in the other post is an excellent resource, "How to make Holsters" by Al Stohlman.

If you were going into business I would say to make the aluminum form, but for one gun, it's not necessary. This is what I have seen others do: unload the gun. No, I'm not trying to be funny, you wouldn't believe how many times I've asked someone to unload the gun when they brought it in, and they said it was already, and it wasn't. Double and triple check. LOL Use Vaseline to protect the metal, and wrap it in Saran wrap, fastening with masking tape to make it snug. Visit your local newspaper and ask for a discarded "end roll" so you have some big paper to experiment with patterns on. (A butcher shop might be able to help, too.) When working with leather, you want to measure twice, cut once, or you'll wind up with (relatively expensive)scrap. You will want to put a straight edge on that hide to cut your strap before you begin (double shoulders are tricky to get the desired length for straps sometimes) and then you can lay your paper pattern this way and that so you miss any blemishes in the leather, and use your hide efficiently. Cut your pattern pieces a little big- you can always trim them later. Wet the leather and use your fingers to push the leather into the desired shape. (See why I want the gun unloaded?) It may need to dry overnight, and you may decide to do it again the next day to get just the shape you want. Some people use little "beanbags" filled with shot to encourage the leather to hold its shape, but you can also use other household objects, as long as you are careful not to mark the wet leather (like a C clamp would mar the surface of wet leather). When you are satisfied with the shape, it's time to punch the holes and sew. Al Stohlman wrote a book on handsewing that covers how to do the two needle lockstitch, which will not unravel if one stitch should break. I would probably use a stitching groover to recess the stitches slightly. When it is sewn, trim your edges and burnish them with denim or scrap leather until they look like one piece, and you can best do that after you've done your dye work, before you use a sealer on the leather. You're going to need: a decent metal yardstick (straight edge), a gang punch or thonging chisel (same thing) or an awl to make the holes, needles and thread (use the blunt harness needles for this job) dye, sealant, hardware, a hole punch. (Do not waste your money on a rotary hole punch- it will limit how far into the work you can go with future projects) and a mallet.

I'm going to ask a couple of the experts to look at this thread, because there are always several ways to skin a cat, no pun intended. This is an ambitious first project, but it's not out of reach, especially with the good advice from the pros. Is there a Tandy dealer anywhere in your area? It would be a good idea to look over the holster book before you get started, and they have the basic tools you will need. I'm going to PM some folks, so stay tuned.

Johanna

[Jim]

Hmmm, sounds like a job for Superman!! K.W. Allen has a good deal of experience with this sort of thing, not to mention is a superb holster Maker, especially for automatics. I'd get a hold of him on this.

Jim

[Lindsay John Ross]

Hi Wes

In the factory world we use a 20 ton hydraulic press which is lined in the inside with layers of special hard rubber about 5" thick. The holster is dipped in water with some dishwasher similar liquid to allow more even penetration and then allowed to dry until the moisture is basically inside but starting to dry on the outside. The pressure is raised to 20 tons and then released. The hoslter with the aluminium replica ( which is used as the dummy) is removed and then re-wet with a sponge on the outside. We use stainless steel moulders ( they are in the shape of a bullet really) to hand mould the now impressed impressions into the leather. Basically just to enhance the moulded look.

In a situation outside the speed production a factory would need I would follow the same steps but use the gun itself and of course just press it and mould by hand. If the holster is unlined one can get a pretty deep impression by hand moulding but if its lined ( suede or smooth lining) you are going to have to put some energy into it. Just wipe the gun off when finished and reoil. If you get the leather with just the right amount of moisture as stated above there is no reason to worry about the moisture on the gun and can easily be removed with adry cloth.

I could go on forever with this but Im sure you get the drift. A good book with some info at the back on doing this by "hand" instead of using hydraulic presses and aluminium moulds is "Bue Steel and Gunleather" by John Bianchi written when he was still in the driving seat @ Bianchi Gunleather.

Dont know if this helps.

Lindsay

[wes]

I am headed to town today and will stop by Tandy's and pick up the Stohlman book on holsters and on hand stitching. I live in the Rocky Mountains at an elevation of 9500 ft and do not get to town very often. This gives me an excuse to visit civilization. I had seen the holster book offered on the 'net but the front cover illustrated the Western revolver type of belt and holster, so I discounted it of any value. This book may re-establish the value of "You can't judge a book by its cover".

Johanna, after your post last night, I could not sleep for thinking of the method in which I could protect my pistol and I am thrilled that my thinking ran parallel with your suggestion of Saran wrap and electrical tape. And your suggestion of Vaseline ads enough extra to give me confidence in using my pistol without reducing it to a hunk of rust. So, I will definitely use my pistol as the mold.

I have also dreamed up a way in which to define the contours and edges of my pistol to a very fine definition and detail. Your mention of bruising the leather during molding introduces a variable which I had not considered. What, exactly, is this bruising? Is it the closing of pores of the leather? Creating a "skinned" or torn blemish?

Lindsay, I was composing this reply before you posted. You explanation is extremely enlightening and gives me quite a bit of food for thought. Let me consider the method that you have mentioned and I will see what resources I have which might duplicate some of those methods.

Right now I am off to town to get some books.

Edited August 27, 2006 by wes

[wes]

Well, Tandy's Leather locations were closed on Sundays. I tried two locations in Denver. Both closed. That was surprising! I figured that any company devoted to supplying hobbyists would be open weekends when those hobbyists would be off work and out buying supplies for their hobbies.

So I, after doing other shopping (purchased a new 27" LCD TV) I came home and ordered two books from eLeather Supply online. The books are being shipped express mail. I ordered The Art of Hand Sewing Leather by Stohlman and How to make Holsters Book by Stohlman. Hope that these two books are the correct ones.

Lindsay, until my books arrive and I can educate myself, please give me your opinion of a method of molding which I have been considering.

1. two hardwood boards such as bird's eye maple, rosewood, or ebony wood.

2. cut out a cutout the exact shape of the pistol, but is 5/64" bigger all around to allow for the thickness of the leather.

3. coat pistol with Vaseline, wrap with Saran wrap, wrap with electrical tape (as suggested by Johanna).

4. sandwich the pistol between two pieces of soaked leather.

5. sandwich the leather (with pistol between) between the two hardwood boards with silhouette cutout of pistol.

6. define the contours of the pistol by pressing premade pieces of wood into the trigger guard, along ridges, etc.

If the above is nonsense, do not hesitate to state so.

[Tom Katzke]

I had a really good reply almost done and my mouse slipped and it is gone. One thing I do not like about this forum, that replies can get dumped so easy.

I will never be able to recreate it so I will say yes you got the correct books.

You need to study on casing leather. Too much water and you are in trouble and too little you will never get the depth you need in the stretch.

You do not need to use hard wood. I have done forms like you are referring to in soft pine and even plywood. One thing to consider is to ease the inside edge unless you want the hard line that will show. Make sure that the bottom of the form is flat and has no bumps or holes as they will show in the leather.

I would not make pieces to use inside the form. Just get or make some ball modelers to use to work in the detail you want.

Just to make sure you know steel and wet leather do not like each other. I am not talking about your gun because you will protect it or not leave it in contact with the leather long enough to have a problem. Steel if left in contact with wet leather will turn it black. Fillings are the biggest problem, so keep the wet leather out of any area you will be working on metal. You should be able to remove the gun after forming the holster. Once the leather is stretched it will keep its shape while it dries unless you mess around and mush it.

If I remember anything else that got lost I will post again.

If you have any other questions just ask and someone will answer.

Tom Katzke

Central Oregon

[wes]

I have ordered Blue Steel and Gunleather by Bianchi, as recommended by Lindsay. I ordered this book through Abebooks.com. It should arrive 3 to 6 days.

You need to study on casing leather. Too much water and you are in trouble and too little you will never get the depth you need in the stretch.

Tom, I am very thankful that you mentioned this. My inclination would have been to let the leather soak indefinitely, thinking that if a little water is good, a lot of water has to be just wonderful. Glad you gave a caution!

[Johanna]

Wes,

Tandy stores are usually closed on Sundays because Tandy Managers are expected to work at least 9-6 Mon-Sat (54 hours a week) and, often, it's more than that. I can't begrudge them their day off, LOL not after my five years as a Tandy mgr. in Georgia.

Take a little piece (corner or something) of that hide, cut it off, and play with it. Wet it a little. Mold it over top of a potato or a carrot, just so you get the idea of how the leather will absorb the water and take shape. Use a stylus or an old pen and make some lines. Use a spoon to practice grooves and shaping. Use your imagination and see what you think. You ordered the two very best books available for what you want to do. Let us know when they arrive and you've had a chance to look them over.

Johanna

[ClayB]

Seems like I remember reading somewhere that you could use one of those vacuum type food sealers to mold leather around objects. Might have been in a LCSJ article. I don't do that type of work (yet) but it seemed like a good idea. It might be an option that you could try.

Clay

[Billsotx]

Wes,

See if this will get you over to some of my pix. There's no shoulder holster, but I wet mold & bone.

http://www.geocities.com/billmclennan@sbcg....net/index.html

later,

Bill

[Tom Katzke]

Seems like I remember reading somewhere that you could use one of those vacuum type food sealers to mold leather around objects. Might have been in a LCSJ article. I don't do that type of work (yet) but it seemed like a good idea. It might be an option that you could try.

Clay

Yep it was. I remember they were using air bags or something like that. I will look to see if I can find it. Dont yell at me if I am wrong but I think it was before 2000.

Tom Katzke

[Billsotx]

Thanks for the advice Tom on the mouse. I used Word and then cut and pasted.

Wes,

I think you’ve got some real good advice from Tom and Lindsay. First I would make a heavy poster board and duct tape pattern and actually wear that around the house/shop for a few hours. Once you cut the pattern out square up the edges. I use sandpaper. Burnish the mouth and the muzzle end, any part you can’t get to once you’ve sewn it. Casing will mess this up a bit, but later minimal burnishing with easily bring it back as you finish it. Wet the leather and wrap it around the pistol. I usually dip it in hot facet water for 1, not more than 2 minutes, then there's the wait until you see surface dryness. Don’t put the gun in plastic. If you have the leather damp it will little to no moisture on the gun. In a “one-off†(or prototype*) like you have here I wet mold twice. The first time is to establish a good tight stitch line. I wrap the leather around the pistol and secure the edges with clothespins. (Line the jaws of the pins with thin leather so they don’t mar. Oh, keep you hands clean and your fingernails short. Tom already mentioned a clean space, so heed his advice.) Use your fingers to press and shape the leather around the pistol. Don’t try to do any detail work. Use you bone folder to lay out a stitch line. Get a tight fit around the trigger guard – this is key! Then bone in around the dust cover all the way to the muzzle. Gently remove the pistol as Tom mentioned.* Let it dry. Remove the clothespin and gently open the holster and apply glue into the stitch area and then clamp. I use the white weld glue, but I’ve used to use Barge – both will work. (Watch the fumes if you use Barge.) Once the glue is set, 30 min. and hour is better, mark your stitches with an over stitch wheel and sew – follow Stohlman’s instructions in the Art of Hand Sewing – that’s the Bible on sewing as far as I’m concerned. Once it is sewn wet it again – just dip in hot water – in and out – shake off the water, blot it with a clean towel and lay it aside and watch for the surface dryness to start appearing. Put the pistol in and work the leather with your fingers. If you want a sight track you need to have made up something to attach to your pistol. I use a wooden dowel. You can tape it on in place. As little tape as possible. Mold with you fingers and then detail with you bone folder. (Bone folder is a general term here – I know guys that bone with an open end wrench, half of a pair of pliers, a ball bearing soldered in the end of a piece of copper tubing, pieces of antler. Ask them why and most can’t remember. I use the butt end on my edge beveller to shape inside the trigger guard.) Once you have it details out very gently remove the pistol and then squeeze the leather back in place ever so slightly. You want a tight fit. Let it dry for 24 hours or more. Burnish the edges. If you going to dye it do that before you burnish. If you’re going to dye it – good luck. If you want it a different color than natural I suggest you buy drum dye. It’s hard to prevent rub off. Bottle dyes don’t seem to do well. The best I’ve found is Fiebings oil dye. Watch the fumes. My experience with dye is don’t do it yourself. There’s a lot of voodoo out there. Try it on scrap. (You’ll need a big garbage can for ruined scrap.) When you try something make notes. When you find something that works stay with it. What works for one guy/gal may not work for you. You will more than likely make several trial runs before you get a good one, but the key is in your pattern. The Stohlman holster book tells you “how†to make a pattern. That’s good advice in there. There’s not much else in there for the modern holster. There is no one book that I have found. Hawk this forum and ask questions and you’ll get further than buying books. What applies to someone else’s craft may also work for you. I’ve learned a lot from the artsy fartsy folks. When I started out an old holster maker told me, “There are no good books available on holster building.†and that still applies.

*If you’re going to make more of the same holster flatten it back out and do some measuring and get the stitch line transferred onto you pattern. (There’s a bunch of those old 591s around and holsters that fit them are rare. You can buy a bag but not a good holster – bag is what I call those nylon POC … lol

Study that picture you posted. That holster is a pull through snap with a pivot, or call it swivel if you want. There’s a double band in the upper cover and it probably has metal or plastic sewn in between two pieces of leather. Gutter flashing is probably what you’ll find it there. It will work just find. You may find a plastic, but I prefer metal because you can start with it flat and then curve it to fit the specific gun. If you go polymer you’ll have to heat and shape it and then you have to work around that. Sort of like a monkey fumbling a football in my experience … lol … won’t go there.

Personally I believe you should go to 7/8 oz material for you scabbard and use your lightweight for the harness. There’s a pattern for a harness in the Stohlman book on holsters that may help you with that. Whatever, stay with double shoulders; there’s less waist in holster making. Make prototypes out of the saggy scarred stuff if there’s any.

You’ll need some tools:

Good knife. I like a round knife. I also keep a large Exacto on the bench. The Exacto will get you started. This is a learning curve, big time, to get smooth cuts. Sandpaper will make pretty what you do ugly. Keep it sharp. Learn to sharpen your tools.

Stitching groover to cut grooves – see the Stohlman book.

Hand stitching Awl with diamond-shaped blade, ditto Stohlman.

Stitching marker, overstitch wheel, whatever you want to call it: it marks the locations for the holes to be punched by the awl. These come in stitches per inch: 5, 6, 7, etc. I usually sew holsters 6 per inch.

Egg-eyed stitching needles. Blunt tipped rather large with a rounded eye, used to stitch. They come in various sizes, buy several sizes.

Stitching pony – I’d start with TLF version and then make one to you liking.

Stitching cord. Personal preference. I like waxed polyester, which is hard to find, and sometimes settle for nylon. I use white. Suit your fancy. Different colors for different jobs. Like dye and finishes you can spend a bunch – if you desire!

Snaps. Get high-grade, heavy-duty snaps, made of brass, Mil-spec bright brass, nickel plated or black as in your photo. And don’t forget the snap setting tools. Line 24 is the best all around size for a utility rig like your building. Consider One-way, Lift the Dot snaps – cost five times a Line 24 but worth it.

Edge bevellers. These are tools that cut a bevel on the edges of leather. Buy several sizes.

Border marking tool. This is an adjustable tool that marks a borderline around the edge of leather, which in places becomes part of the stitch line. This tool is mostly for appearance, but you can mark with it.

Rawhide mallet heavy 30 oz + and some punches. You need some momentum to bag punch belt slots. On punches buy the individual punch type, not the pliers type. I’ll sell you several pliers types if you want to try them … lol … ebay material for sure.

You’ll undoubtedly come up with some homegrown tools. It may be a "What’s It" there on your bench. Use whatever feels "right".

Get some miscellaneous dyes, finishes, edge finishing, and dressings and experiment. Boy can you have fun with these. That’s why I like au naturale!

Also some thin cardboard, pencils, drawing tools like compass and ruler to make your own patterns. Masking tape, duct tape, blue painters tape, and a stick of glue. Piece meal you pattern and then make a nice one after you “think†it right. Then you’ll probably make a few more. This is key to easy holster making.

I’d start off just trying to make a holster that will fit my gun. You will only learn by doing. There are no books, and no schools that I know of on holster making. Find a holster you like the look of, modify it to your liking, and make it. If you copy someone give credit.

Just jump in get started. When you realize your first isn’t perfect you’ll have joined the club. You will probably have to redesign and remake – and it never WILL be perfect. Not if you’re a true craftsman. That’s what fun about leather. I think trying to make a "perfect" holster and failing for the rest of your life … lol … is what makes a master at the craft. For the most part others will not see the flaws. They will marvel at you skill. Any you have a secret: trying to do better. … Buena suerte amigo. See you down the trail.

[wes]

One-way, Lift the Dot snaps – cost five times a Line 24 but worth it

Where may I find these snaps?

I really do not prefer the pull through snap and would rather have a stiff thumb snap release.

[Billsotx]

Where may I find these snaps?

I really do not prefer the pull through snap and would rather have a stiff thumb snap release.

Ohio Travel Bag.

[Gregory B. Moody]

"Stitching marker, overstitch wheel, whatever you want to call it:"

Those are two different tools... and the Overstitch wheel is the better one because it will accomplish the distance marking for where to punch the holes...then after you have stitched you run it over the stitching and it makes it looks like it was machine stitched... but look for an old one with good scallops and wide blade... some of the newer ones won't cover normal hand stitching thread... Greg

[Billsotx]

Hey the "Hide-tanner" is here ... lol!

Edited August 29, 2006 by Billsotx

[wes]

My book Blue Steel & Gunleather by Bianchi came in yesterday. So I read it.

I am now awaiting my two Stahlman books so that I can begin formulating a plan using your suggestions and what I can glean from the books.

I am gaining much confidence from the communications with the members of this forum. Please do not think that I have let my ardor for this project wane. It has not. Quite the contrary. Increasing confusion usually cools my enthusiasm and, so far, my understanding of my holster making process has become more clear since joining this forum.

Edited September 1, 2006 by wes

[wes]

Well, I am now all "booked up"! I received The Art of Hand Sewing Leather by Stohlman and How to make Holsters Book by Stohlman in the mail today.

I will spend quite a bit of time this weekend reading those two books and then you will most probably see me in the various sections of this forum asking questions and soliciting advice.

By the way, this is an absolutely wonderful forum. From the very first welcome, through all of the expert advice given to me, this has been a very enjoyable experience. Thanks to you all.

I will make a wager right now that my first major mistake will be stretching the leather too much and destroying its inner fiber structure, destroying its firmness and rigidity after it has dried. Is this a hazard or possibility?

[Gregory B. Moody]

I will take that wager... no chance of that happening.... there is a reason leather is chosen to make holsters out of... LOL

I will make a wager right now that my first major mistake will be stretching the leather too much and destroying its inner fiber structure, destroying its firmness and rigidity after it has dried. Is this a hazard or possibility?

[wes]

The holster is dipped in water with some dishwasher similar liquid to allow more even penetration and then allowed to dry until the moisture is basically inside but starting to dry on the outside. The pressure is raised to 20 tons and then released.

Lindsay, is there a particular commercial dishwasher similar liquid that you would recommend over all of the other brands. I read Bianchi's book cover to cover last night and enjoyed it very much. I am a collector of rare European pistols and revolvers. As a peripheral interest I have accumulated quite a few original European and American holsters circa 1900 in excellent condition for these handguns. Bianchi's passion for collecting old holsters struck a chord with me. I have several holsters for which I gave impressive sums.

Pictured below are a couple of examples of my collection:

1. Biffar, Chicago

2. an Austrian holster for a 1901 commercial Austrian Steyr Mannlicher

Edited September 2, 2006 by wes

[Johanna]

Wes,

I often think simplicity is elegance. I like the clean lines of the holster you selected to make as your first project, and I like these collector pieces, too.

I'm not an expert on antique leathers, but your Austrian holster appears to be dry. You may want to consider oiling it to prevent or slow down the dreaded "dry-rot". What happens is that the leather gets brittle, usually around the stitch lines, then comes undone, and then the item falls apart. Sometimes the leather will darken with an oiling, so if you do not want to risk that, try it in an inconspicous place first. There are many products available to condition leather, and many people swear by Lexol products. I like Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator, personally. Maybe someone with more experience doing leather reconditioning or restoration will recommend something else.

When you apply conditioner, put it on your rag or sheepskin, not the item, and rub it in, then buff with a clean soft cloth. Some leather is thirsty, and you may have to repeat in a few days to get the desired moisture content back into it. Too much oil will damage the leather, so don't soak it- just go slow and use your eyes and hands to tell when the leather feels right.

Wes, the only concern I have is that the hide you selected is going to be too thin for the project. Is there any way you could exchange it for a 8/9 oz weight? By the way, double shoulders are the "prime" part of the hide. You could also buy a side (less $ per sq. ft.) and cut straps, then use the lower third for your project. All hides will vary, so when you select a hide, flip it over. If there is a weak spot in the part you have decided to place your pattern, you will have a problem. You will be dyeing your holster black, so you don't need to worry about color variations (like if a hide became sunburnt on display) and might even be able to negotiate a discount. 5/6 is going to mold well, but not have the stiffness you will want, in my opinion, for this project. What do you professionals think??

Johanna

[wes]

Johanna,

The treatment that I use on my holsters is Renaissance wax. The picture that I posted is of the holster whenever I first acquired it. Since that time I have treated it a couple of times with Renaissance wax and it is a shade richer than that which appears in the picture. And since you mention it, a little bit of time has passed since I have treated my holsters and will do so again this weekend. I live in the Rockies at an elevation of 9500 ft and the area has a very low percentage of humidity; between 10% and 25%. This is wonderful for metal objects but I do need to pay attention to my leather goods.

I trust that you are absolutely right about the gage of my hide. If, after completing my holster, it is too flimsy, then I shall purchase another hide of greater weight and will have benefitted by my experience. I am most probably a great fool for not obtaining a different hide immediately.