How do you like to saddle stitch gussets, pre-punch holes or mark them and punch them when the pieces are joined?

[newmexican66]

I'm newer to making "3d" projects such as bags and purses.  One thing that has been of constant frustration to me is the techniques people like to use to design and sew their gussets together.  I can't find many good videos and have searched hi and low.  I understand how the concept works, but the trouble I find is that many videos offer a pattern in which the holes are premarked.  At this point I am quite capable of copying a pattern, but for my own knowledge I would like to know how people like to sew gussets when they are not following a pre-designed patterned so I can create my own designs.
 

Do you like to pre-punch your holes in both the gusset and the body?  Mark the points where the hole should go, either with a wheel or an iron, attach the gusset to the body, and then stitch both pieces, punch the holes in one piece to use as a guide/lessen the thickness the awl must travel through, attach the pieces, and then finish off with an awl?

Also, if anyone has any good resources, books, videos, posts, on the subject that they could link me to I would greatly appreciate it.

Edit: Also, I find a lot of tutorials are sorely lacking on the design phase and get the gusset to the proper length seems challenging, so if there's any insights to that anyone could offer, I would appreciate that as well.

Edited December 7, 2018 by newmexican66
More information

[JLSleather]

I hate punched holes.  Mark the OUTSIDE piece (usually with a wheel), assemble, hold temporarily with needles, tacks, or thread pieces, and sew with an awl, removing the temp holders as you go.

[newmexican66]

11 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

I hate punched holes.  Mark the OUTSIDE piece (usually with a wheel), assemble, hold temporarily with needles, tacks, or thread pieces, and sew with an awl, removing the temp holders as you go.

Thank you for taking the time to share your preferred method with me.  Can I ask why you dislike pre-punched holes?  Not to challenge you, but I find I learn more if I understand the reasons for someone's likes and dislikes.  

Also, still very much interested in hearing from people who agree, disagree, or use methods I may not be aware off.

[Stetson912]

Ok, good questions. I do a mix of both. Sometimes I mark my stitches with pricking irons and then use an awl to make the holes. Sometimes I use diamond chisels for chunkier builds and punch all the way through. Usually, I only punch holes on both pieces of leather when it's a basic stitch line that's easy to line up. Most other times, I mark one piece of leather and stick the other piece(s) to it then make the hole with an awl. 

There are ways to mark and punch holes so they line up nice. It really makes stitching easy. I'm going to recommend you look into Nigel armitage Vimeo video series. It is a paid subscription and I know there are those that are against that type of thing, but the information he provides is invaluable. He will also show you the pre punch technique and has a video doing that with a gusset. I believe it's about $4 a month. Not expensive at all. 

[newmexican66]

1 minute ago, Stetson912 said:

Ok, good questions. I do a mix of both. Sometimes I mark my stitches with pricking irons and then use an awl to make the holes. Sometimes I use diamond chisels for chunkier builds and punch all the way through. Usually, I only punch holes on both pieces of leather when it's a basic stitch line that's easy to line up. Most other times, I mark one piece of leather and stick the other piece(s) to it then make the hole with an awl. 

There are ways to mark and punch holes so they line up nice. It really makes stitching easy. I'm going to recommend you look into Nigel armitage Vimeo video series. It is a paid subscription and I know there are those that are against that type of thing, but the information he provides is invaluable. He will also show you the pre punch technique and has a video doing that with a gusset. I believe it's about $4 a month. Not expensive at all. 

Oh cool, thanks, I appreciate the advice and suggestion.  Yeah, I have no problem paying 4 bucks to view content as Mr. Armitage has already been very generous with his information.  I've been recently looking into stitching irons as I've pretty much either used a cheap overstitch wheel or a chisel.  The wheel I have doesn't leave slanted lines, just points, do you find that the slanted markings that come from the irons help you to keep the proper angel with your awl?  I have my awls sharpened to a point and do admit that I have difficulty making consistent marks in conjunction with the overstitch wheel.  

[Stetson912]

I think stitching is somewhat relative. One person may not like a technique or method of stitching that others do. Some like round holes for flatter stitches or using a stitch groove to achieve that same look. 

And others (like me) like the more angled stitch look and use techniques and methods accordingly. I also don't like a groover at all. I never use mine anymore.

That's not to say one way is better than the other. They both do the same job, stick pieces of leather together with thread. It's just the journey getting there that is different. Some like the groove to recess stitching, and there are times that it may be necessary, but for what I do, and the amount of tension I tend to apply, the thread is recessed enough without a groove, so I don't find it necessary for ME to use one. And the straight vs angle is all just asthetics if you ask me

[Stetson912]

1 minute ago, newmexican66 said:

Oh cool, thanks, I appreciate the advice and suggestion.  Yeah, I have no problem paying 4 bucks to view content as Mr. Armitage has already been very generous with his information.  I've been recently looking into stitching irons as I've pretty much either used a cheap overstitch wheel or a chisel.  The wheel I have doesn't leave slanted lines, just points, do you find that the slanted markings that come from the irons help you to keep the proper angel with your awl?  I have my awls sharpened to a point and do admit that I have difficulty making consistent marks in conjunction with the overstitch wheel.  

Very much so. Personally I never could keep a good truly consistent angle with just an awl and wheel. I wasn't terrible but not good enough. So my "crutch" should we say is using pricking irons. It's very easy to follow the angle with the awl. I use diamond chisels as pricking irons sometimes in the same way. All depends on what I'm working on. My chisels are probably 5/6 spi and my irons are 8 I think, so I use the chisels on large beefy items like holsters and sheaths and the irons on smaller things like small notebooks or wallets

[newmexican66]

10 minutes ago, Stetson912 said:

I think stitching is somewhat relative. One person may not like a technique or method of stitching that others do. Some like round holes for flatter stitches or using a stitch groove to achieve that same look. 

And others (like me) like the more angled stitch look and use techniques and methods accordingly. I also don't like a groover at all. I never use mine anymore.

That's not to say one way is better than the other. They both do the same job, stick pieces of leather together with thread. It's just the journey getting there that is different. Some like the groove to recess stitching, and there are times that it may be necessary, but for what I do, and the amount of tension I tend to apply, the thread is recessed enough without a groove, so I don't find it necessary for ME to use one. And the straight vs angle is all just asthetics if you ask me

I agree as I suppose the only "right" answer is whether or not your piece looks like you want it to and serves its purpose well.  However, being newer I am interested in all the different routes people take to arrive at the same destination, especially the "whys" in regards to their preferred techniques as it allows me to retain and discard information as they suite my purposes, sometimes combining two thoughts from different schools.

[JLSleather]

No trouble.  Main thing I don't care for is the way those "chisels" or "irons" pull out of the leather... pulling the leather on teh way. With quite thin leather, the effect is minimal, but it gets worse as the leather gets thicker.  I get marking the hole locations with your chisel if that's how you prefer to do it.  But I dont punch them. Either you punch a HOLE (material is removed) or you punch a slit (material is cut only but not removed) which is better than a hole, but still distorting the work.

Having said that, I've seen some work where they guy doing it had become quite proficient with one or more "chisels", and made it look nice.  Just seems like a waste of energy to me.

BUT, I'm the one who doesn't care for that angled / slanted stitch.  Perhaps that floats better in great Britain, along with that accent.  No problem with the next guy doing it, no intention of trying to sway anybody one way or the other, but I personally like an awl no bigger than needed to get the job done (usually they're tapered, so just push it in far enough to come out the back side).  I even buy machine needles that take that angled look out of it -- very straight lines.

I saw a little fella about 5 foot tall roofing a house with a hatchet to drive nails -- and he was doing it as well and as quickly as I've ever seen it done.  Wouldn't have been my choice, but he was so comfortable using it was like automatic for him.

 

[newmexican66]

8 minutes ago, Stetson912 said:

Very much so. Personally I never could keep a good truly consistent angle with just an awl and wheel. I wasn't terrible but not good enough. So my "crutch" should we say is using pricking irons. It's very easy to follow the angle with the awl. I use diamond chisels as pricking irons sometimes in the same way. All depends on what I'm working on. My chisels are probably 5/6 spi and my irons are 8 I think, so I use the chisels on large beefy items like holsters and sheaths and the irons on smaller things like small notebooks or wallets

That's good to hear, I'll look into a set.  Yes, I'm not terrible, but the drawback to the beauty of a nicely angled saddlestitch is that, in my experience at least, it is unforgiving to even slight variations.  On your "beefier" items, when you use the chisels, do you intentionally go through multiple layers of leather before they reach a limit and then finish with an awl, or do you us them as if they were irons and just mark the holes to be made by and awl?  I have been playing around with the thought of using my chisels as irons until I get a set of proper irons and while I intend to do my own research I'm curious to your experience.  Do you think that a chisel could serve as a pricking iron on smaller items or is that when the finer marks or the irons are necessary?