Burnishing - how many RPM?

[LottyAfrica]

Hi all,

I am looking at buying a bench drill press, to mount a wooden burnisher in. 

There's different types with different speeds.

Please could you share with me what the best speed for burnishing is, approximately?

The bench drill I'm looking at, has a slowest speed of 580 RPM. I would like to know if that is OK, or too fast?

Thanks

[TxLeather2]

depends on the diameter of your burnisher

[LottyAfrica]

9 minutes ago, TxLeather2 said:

depends on the diameter of your burnisher

It’s a decent sized one

not at home now so can’t measure it for you..

[TxLeather2]

I would say that 580 RPM is a good speed, no more than that (IMHO)

[heydox]

The bench top Cobra burnishing machine that I use has an RPM range of 2000 to 3500. 580 may be too low to get an effective burnish, but you did say that’s the slowest speed. 

[Matt S]

As others have said, it's really about surface feet per minute, which is a product of burnisher diameter and RPM, rather than RPM per se. FWIW my burnisher is about 2"/5cm diameter and runs at nearly 3000RPM. I consider this to be at or near to the maximum speed I'd want or recommend. I had to modify my technique to reduce the amount of edge burning and I still burn the odd bit of leather here and there. Further, there are safety implications. Sure burnishes quickly though.

[Mattsbagger]

I’d say practice at different speeds and see what work for YOU. Since different leathers react different.

[LottyAfrica]

Hi everyone! 

Thanks for the feedback.

I've measured the burnisher, it's diameter is just over 4cm (1.57 inch)

Of course I'll be testing and trying what works for me, but as different bench drills have different minimum-speeds, I was afraid that I would buy something wrong (too fast) and therefor would never get the desired result

Does anyone have a similar burnisher - some tips to share?

[mike02130]

I just bought one similar to yours--maybe the same?. I asked the maker what speed is good. I gave him a list of speed options from 180rpms to 3500.  He told me slower is better.  I tried it on some 9 oz veg tan at 180 rpms and that worked well. But I haven't had the chance to try other rpms--yet.  

Don't let anyone get you caught up in figuring rpms to diameter ratios and the like. If you want to go simple you can pick up a used 1/4 to 1/2 HP motor with 1725 or 3500 rpms pretty cheap. Buy an arbor and chuck and you have a good machine.  This set up has a much smaller footprint than a drill press.  Hell, get a double shaft motor, two chucks one with a drum sander the other with the burnisher.  

[bermudahwin]

5 hours ago, mike02130 said:

Don't let anyone get you caught up in figuring rpms to diameter ratios and the like.

The material of the burnisher head, the physical speed at the point of contact with the leather, the type of leather AND the pressure put upon the leather onto the burnisher are all components of 'what you need to sort out what suits you'.

Unfortunately Mike  "the physical speed at the point of contact with the leather" will get you caught up in that. I personally put it all together and try it, raher than working it out, but a large burnishing wheel has a much faster contact area than a small one - watch the inside label versus the outside edge of a vynil disc on a recored player.

BTW, most of my veg tan burnishing I do by hand with a rough rag, but as people of the forum have realised I am a wee bit old fahioned.

Best

H

Edited April 3, 2019 by hwinbermuda

[mike02130]

Yeah sure, the outside spins faster than at the shaft. This is a 1.75" leather burnisher we're talking about, not a large wheel.  The person only has a few options at speed choices.  No one has presented an optimum speed. So sitting down and figuring out ratios would be a mute point. Get the burnisher on a machine and see if it works.  If the Cobra machine works well at two thousand rpms(I'm assuming that speed is measured at the shaft) and burns the leather at 3000 then one would go to 2000 rpms or less. A 1725rpm motor should be fine. I used one at 180 rpms and that worked well.  

I'm sure there are other solutions, but no one has offered any 

[chrisash]

Makes you wonder what speed hand burnishing is, and that seems to work well

[Mattsbagger]

My Harbor Freight drill press is running at its slowest speed. It’s the small bench top one. It works just fine with a 1.5 inch burnisher. When I use it. Mostly just use canvas and water now because rarely do I use leather thicker than 5oz.

[bullmoosepaddles]

My reply does not answer your question. It does present you with a less expensive option and provide you with easily achievable results. I never tried it originally  because it seemed to simple. 

I turned burnishers, used lathes, drill presse, 1/4 horsepower motor to turn wheels of different types and sizes.  I chased the illusive perfectly burnished edge for a while looking for an easier way.

The best edges I have ever produced were using the method demonstrated by Don Gonzales on YouTube. It cost next to nothing as compared to the burnishers I tried.   

Also that method has never given me a bad edge. For a rag, soap, stick and water its worth a try. 

I wish you well in your search. 

[Japi]

When the Englishman first designed and started selling his burnisher, he did a deal with the people that helped developed it and they sold the burnisher and power source as a unit. Needless to say, it was all a con and the power source was a cheap generic brand , phase 1, two shaft machine that ran at 3000 rmp. Intended for a 150mm wheel power was 370W, Volts 230v- 50Hz and Amps 2.  Having developed emphysema, I am no longer able to burnish anything much and nothing well I have used this machine with it's 2 1/4" outside diameter burnishing wheel since I got it, a little before I joined this site in 2016. I don't post much but I try to help. Take care and remember to have fun

Edited April 6, 2019 by Japi

[Matt S]

4 hours ago, Japi said:

When the Englishman first designed and started selling his burnisher, he did a deal with the people that helped developed it and they sold the burnisher and power source as a unit. Needless to say, it was all a con and the power source was a cheap generic brand , phase 1, two shaft machine that ran at 3000 rmp. Intended for a 150mm wheel power was 370W, Volts 230v- 50Hz and Amps 2.  Having developed emphysema, I am no longer able to burnish anything much and nothing well I have used this machine with it's 2 1/4" outside diameter burnishing wheel since I got it, a little before I joined this site in 2016. I don't post much but I try to help. Take care and remember to have fun

Hi Japi,

I bought the same burnisher several years ago though I supplied my own motor. The one designed by Nigel Armitage ("the Englishman") and sold by Just Wood. I've burnished literally hundreds of belts and other leather items with it in the past year alone. The burnisher itself is very well made and service was prompt from Just Wood. Nigel responded within 48 hours when I asked him a question so I can't fault his service either.

I find it interesting that you describe it as a con. The motor is a Draper model #29620, which retails for between £70 and £100 online. Just Wood sells it at about the middle of that range. They have done the job of removing the safety guards and grinding stones, which is a half-hour job for which not everybody has the necessary tools and hand strength so there's added value there too. In what way is that a con? Draper is a long-established firm that, while not selling top quality tools don't charge top price either. I've used cheaper motors on my burnisher and trust me -- you don't want that.

The burnisher itself is not cheap (currently about £85 on its own) but it's cheaper than buying a lathe, turning tools and learning to make a wooden tool that's balanced enough not to vibrate when turning 50 times a second.

When you say you haven't been able to burnish anything, do you mean with this machine or that your health problems have meant that you can't now burnish by hand? I had to modify my technique a little when I got it, and make adjustments when using different leathers. That's just part and parcel of leatherwork.

[chrisash]

History about Draper tools

https://www.drapertools.com/about-drapertools

Quite good for a family run business

[Japi]

On 4/6/2019 at 2:56 PM, Japi said:

When the Englishman first designed and started selling his burnisher, he did a deal with the people that helped developed it and they sold the burnisher and power source as a unit. Needless to say, it was all a con and the power source was a cheap generic brand , phase 1, two shaft machine that ran at 3000 rmp. Intended for a 150mm wheel power was 370W, Volts 230v- 50Hz and Amps 2.  Having developed emphysema, I am no longer able to burnish anything much and nothing well I have used this machine with it's 2 1/4" outside diameter burnishing wheel since I got it, a little before I joined this site in 2016. I don't post much but I try to help. Take care and remember to have fun

To live is to die, all else is prologue.

[Matt S]

3 hours ago, Japi said:

To live is to die, all else is prologue.

I... see...

[mikesc]

Having watched many of Nigel's videos, ( even though my business is not one for which they are applicable ) I always found them to be extremely well made and clear..Personally I object very strongly to the suggestion that he is in any way a "con"..There are many scams and cons in leatherwork ( and in other craft based businesses )..In my opinion he is not one of the people perpetrating them..Selling a burnisher as part of an "all in one" with a motor

Needless to say, it was all a con and the power source was a cheap generic brand , phase 1, two shaft machine that ran at 3000 rmp. Intended for a 150mm wheel power was 370W, Volts 230v- 50Hz and Amps 2.

is not a con merely because you personally do not think that the motor is a good one, or that it lacks a "brand name" that you personally approve of..

To accuse someone of being involved in a "con" is to say that they are dishonest..which in UK law is defamation and more specifically libel ( because your defamation of Nigel Armitage is in written form )..and is actionable in justice..

[Dangerous Beans]

On 4/6/2019 at 2:56 PM, Japi said:

When the Englishman first designed and started selling his burnisher, he did a deal with the people that helped developed it and they sold the burnisher and power source as a unit. Needless to say, it was all a con and the power source was a cheap generic brand , phase 1, two shaft machine that ran at 3000 rmp. Intended for a 150mm wheel power was 370W, Volts 230v- 50Hz and Amps 2.  Having developed emphysema, I am no longer able to burnish anything much and nothing well I have used this machine with it's 2 1/4" outside diameter burnishing wheel since I got it, a little before I joined this site in 2016. I don't post much but I try to help. Take care and remember to have fun

 

3

Hello Japi, 
Normally, a quiet private message seems to resolve misunderstandings and that is how I like to deal with many issues. I do not like to air laundry in public.  However, you appear to be levelling quite a severe accusation now out in the open so I think a more public approach may be prudent. 
I take it you are not happy with the motor, that is unfortunate, you have made contact with Just Wood to allow them to rectify any issues you may be suffering? I do not think you have emailed me asking for my input, I am suspecting not. 

You make mention of the power source being cheap and generic, yes, we thought it was good value too and Draper has a good name and is very affordable. You would have been well aware of this at point of purchase.
As for it being single phase, I can't think of many leatherworkers that would want a burnisher running on three phase, this is the realm of constant industrial use. Those in that field are well aware of what they need and, I doubt many houses and small workshops have the ability to use three-phase machines.

Onto the number of shafts, two is the most we can fit onto it so I cannot find issue there.
As for the power, yes, 370W, perfect we thought, that is 1/2 a horsepower and will stop if trapped or the operator gets caught up in it with the 2amp causing it to overload and trip out preventing any serious harm.
All this with enough power to get the job done. I am still not seeing evidence of this con you mention.

You mention that it is "needless to say", yet you do, "it was all a con" are you referring to the deal I did? unlikely as you have no knowledge of any deal I have undertaken with Just Wood. You make no mention of the burnisher so I will surmise that you along with a great many others are happy with that, which leaves the motor. Just Wood clearly describe the motor and have an image showing the number of spindles, it leaves little room for confusion.
If you bought it, you will have seen all of this so where has the confusion come from and how do you feel that you have been conned? everything you mention as a negative is clearly stated and transparent, I am at a loss Japi, are you able to help me understand your issue so I can help?

In the meantime, I would be grateful if you could qualify your comment, retract it if said in error or evidence it if you stand by it.

The Englishman 
Also called Nigel

 

[bermudahwin]

1 hour ago, Dangerous Beans said:

In the meantime, I would be grateful if you could qualify your comment, retract it if said in error or evidence it if you stand by it.

Well said, sir.

Harry