folded over leather breaking needles

[Dave84]

Hi Guys,

I've been battling this demon for a while now.  I make motorcycle jackets and rock n roll vests, areas of multiple layers of leather when folded over for the finish topstitch, cause the needle to ricochet while penetrating to the left, causing the needle to hit the bottom plate and break.  The needle will go through the first few layers then ricochet, i think from too dense of material.  But how do top companies like Schott and Vanson have such a nicely finished product?

Using 125/20 Organ leather needles with Tex 80 Polycore thread.  I hammer these dense areas with a ball pen to flatten as best as possible.  I can mostly get through these thick areas by hand cranking only, testing to see if the needle bends to the left, lifting up the top dog and wiggling everything over so the needle goes through the bottom plate hole.  It's such a pain and doesn't always give a straight stitch, sometimes from the ricochet it has a wonky line of stitch.

In the attached pic, heres an example of these dense areas.  to the right of the belt loop, you can see the wonkiness of the stitch!

Thanks for anyones imput.

[kgg]

I have two question:.

What is the combined thickness of all the layers of leather that you are trying to sew through

What machine are you using?

Also I don't see any attached pictures in your post.

kgg

[Ferg]

I don't see your pic either. kJ is on the right track. You probably are not using the correct machine for the job.

How many layers of what thickness material are you trying to stitch?

Ferg

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ferg

[Dave84]

Just uploaded again.  Material thickness I'd say is 3/8" to 1/2", folded over buffalo hide of 1mm if I remember correctly.  My machine is an Adler 167 walking foot, tex 80, 135x16tri 125/20 needle.

It's the seam just below the belt loop if the image is not straight but 90 degrees.  It didn't rotate on my phone lol.

[kgg]

I think you have topped out your machines sewing abilities. As a possible solution to the bending and braking of needles I would try a large diameter needle by moving up to a size 22 or 23 needle for the extra needle strength and increase the stitch length. If that doesn't work I would probably would look at investing in a different machine.

kgg

[Dave84]

10 hours ago, kgg said:

I think you have topped out your machines sewing abilities. As a possible solution to the bending and braking of needles I would try a large diameter needle by moving up to a size 22 or 23 needle for the extra needle strength and increase the stitch length. If that doesn't work I would probably would look at investing in a different machine.

kgg

Thanks kgg for your input.  I  know the Adler can handle leather, been using it for a while, but these areas of more density than I usually stitch together is frustrating.   I'll call Bob at Toledo and try some thicker needles but am concerned about the punctured hole size, even with a tex 105 thread.  I may ultimately rethink my lining structure instead for now.

[chrisash]

Can you not skive the leather down more at the area's you are sewing

[Mark842]

13 hours ago, Dave84 said:

I  know the Adler can handle leather, been using it for a while,

Your machine is a great machine in the upholstery class. At 1/2" , KGG is correct, you are pushing its limit. That being said I would move up in needle and thread size. Pretty sure that machine will handle up to a size 24 needle. That will likely stop the needle deflection.

One size doesn't fit all in leather sewing. I have 8 different machines and they all have a range for what they will do great.  Looking at your pictures you can see where your stitch length shortens as your machine is struggling to feed the leather.

[Dave84]

13 hours ago, Mark842 said:

Your machine is a great machine in the upholstery class. At 1/2" , KGG is correct, you are pushing its limit. That being said I would move up in needle and thread size. Pretty sure that machine will handle up to a size 24 needle. That will likely stop the needle deflection.

One size doesn't fit all in leather sewing. I have 8 different machines and they all have a range for what they will do great.  Looking at your pictures you can see where your stitch length shortens as your machine is struggling to feed the leather.

I'll definitely try moving up on needle size.  Your second paragraph is spot on!  There isn't much room for the feet to move at all.  I have a similar situation on denim, when there's a thicker part of folded over material then jumping to a thin, 2 layer section, make sense?  Never could really find an answer as to why that is, plenty of foot travel.

17 hours ago, chrisash said:

Can you not skive the leather down more at the area's you are sewing

I've been looking into skiving a little, but dont know much about it.  The amount I would need it doesnt justify a hefty pricetag though is my first thought.  Any good hand tools out there you could recommend chrisash?

[chrisash]

Not really I am crap at it myself but just use the basic hand skiver, But it will make a large difference to your sewing if you do it

[kgg]

8 hours ago, Dave84 said:

I have a similar situation on denim, when there's a thicker part of folded over material then jumping to a thin, 2 layer section, make sense?  Never could really find an answer as to why that is, plenty of foot travel.

The problem maybe due to presser foot pressure. The setting to get good presser foot tension on the thick stuff maybe to light when you drop down to 2 layers or the foot is partially resting on the thick stuff while trying to sew the 2 layers.

kgg

[Dave84]

On 12/6/2019 at 6:41 AM, kgg said:

The problem maybe due to presser foot pressure. The setting to get good presser foot tension on the thick stuff maybe to light when you drop down to 2 layers or the foot is partially resting on the thick stuff while trying to sew the 2 layers.

kgg

Yes, it is partial resting, continues to pull the lesser section causing some weirdness in the stitch line, but the thick part stays in place at the presser feet.  Any solution on fixing that?

On 12/6/2019 at 4:28 AM, chrisash said:

Not really I am crap at it myself but just use the basic hand skiver, But it will make a large difference to your sewing if you do it

Thanks, I'll start looking at it.  Razor blades I have plenty of!  Using garment leather seems to be extra tricky.  Might just shift some of these extra folded parts around to balance out too much thicknesses. 

[kgg]

You could maybe try a sample piece and play with the amount of pressure that you have set the presser foot at. I am going to assume that you are trying to sew across a hump of multi layers of denim. Any hump is always going to try and tilt the heel of the presser foot back. For that I would use a wedge. The wife's thick nail file /buffer would be the first likely candidate. As you are coming up to the hump, lift the pressure foot up with the needle in the down position through the material as if you were going to make a turn, slide the wedge under the back of the presser foot and let the presser foot back down. That should keep the pressure foot level and allow it to sew over the hump. That combined with a little tugging on the thinner material to prevent over feed of the material should help. I would also experiment with adjusting the amount of pressure on the presser foot (thicker materials need less pressure foot pressure then thin).

kgg

[Dave84]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:15 PM, kgg said:

You could maybe try a sample piece and play with the amount of pressure that you have set the presser foot at. I am going to assume that you are trying to sew across a hump of multi layers of denim. Any hump is always going to try and tilt the heel of the presser foot back. For that I would use a wedge. The wife's thick nail file /buffer would be the first likely candidate. As you are coming up to the hump, lift the pressure foot up with the needle in the down position through the material as if you were going to make a turn, slide the wedge under the back of the presser foot and let the presser foot back down. That should keep the pressure foot level and allow it to sew over the hump. That combined with a little tugging on the thinner material to prevent over feed of the material should help. I would also experiment with adjusting the amount of pressure on the presser foot (thicker materials need less pressure foot pressure then thin).

kgg

Hi KGG, I'm updating this thread and would like your help.  My Adler has been working just fine on denim, other heavy fabrics and light leather and will keep it for those projects.  Now, after doing several jackets, some perfect, larger percentage still having this issue although tamed immensely over the years, I'm done with my system of avoiding as best as possible all above.  One comment mentioned hitting the limit of this Adler 167-373, so what machine would be the next step up for jacket making, bags, wallets?  I'd like to stay with a name brand for easy parts and service.  Thanks! 

[Aven]

Hand skiving takes a bit of practice, but it is a skill worth learning.

Do a search for Lisa Sorrell Skiving Youtube.  She has two, maybe three videos about skiving and skiving knives.  They are well worth your time.

[kgg]

27 minutes ago, Dave84 said:

One comment mentioned hitting the limit of this Adler 167-373, so what machine would be the next step up for jacket making, bags, wallets?

 

On 12/4/2019 at 12:33 PM, Dave84 said:

Material thickness I'd say is 3/8" to 1/2", folded over buffalo hide of 1mm if I remember correctly.

I would first suggest taking a sample of the thickest, including seams, of material or leather to a machine dealer and test drive a few machines. I would in a flatbed suggest looking at compound sewing machines that have the minimum sewing capacity of the Juki 1508 NH but you maybe once again be at their rated sewing limit.

Once you get into needing too sew 1/2" thickness you are really, I think, needing a Class 441 machine. That would in a flatbed probably put you into a Juki TNU-243U or a Juki TSC- 441 cylinder bed with a flat top attachment. Both machines are grossly expensive probably north of $10,000.

For most the cost is prohibitive so I would suggest looking at machines similar to the Cowboy CB 243 flatbed or in a cylinder bed the CB4500 with a flat top attachment. The cost of those machines are probably in the $3000 to $3500 range. 

I would stay with Juki or clones as accessories, replacement parts are cheaper and more readily available then say PFAFF and Alder.

kgg

[Dave84]

18 minutes ago, kgg said:

 

I would first suggest taking a sample of the thickest, including seams, of material or leather to a machine dealer and test drive a few machines. I would in a flatbed suggest looking at compound sewing machines that have the minimum sewing capacity of the Juki 1508 NH but you maybe once again be at their rated sewing limit.

Once you get into needing too sew 1/2" thickness you are really, I think, needing a Class 441 machine. That would in a flatbed probably put you into a Juki TNU-243U or a Juki TSC- 441 cylinder bed with a flat top attachment. Both machines are grossly expensive probably north of $10,000.

For most the cost is prohibitive so I would suggest looking at machines similar to the Cowboy CB 243 flatbed or in a cylinder bed the CB4500 with a flat top attachment. The cost of those machines are probably in the $3000 to $3500 range. 

I would stay with Juki or clones as accessories, replacement parts are cheaper and more readily available then say PFAFF and Alder.

kgg

Thanks KGG.  To see if I understand, the Adler 167 I have is an upholstery grade which I believe does have 1/2" of lift, but isn't strong enough to handle denser seams.  The next step up into walking foot industrial machines is a significant jump to $3000-$10000.  Does Juki make a medium duty leather sewing machine that can handle heavier garments?

30 minutes ago, Aven said:

Hand skiving takes a bit of practice, but it is a skill worth learning.

Do a search for Lisa Sorrell Skiving Youtube.  She has two, maybe three videos about skiving and skiving knives.  They are well worth your time.

Aven, Thanks for the reply.  I hand skive veg tan for bags and belts but will definitely research the videos.  I'm currently using .08 chrome tan for the jackets and hand skiving I've not had success with.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Dave84

[kgg]

3 hours ago, Dave84 said:

To see if I understand, the Adler 167 I have is an upholstery grade which I believe does have 1/2" of lift, but isn't strong enough to handle denser seams. 

The upholstery grade machines have about 1/2" presser foot lift but you have to subtract about 1/8" from that for sewing purposes. This means you should be able to sew about 3/8" of material depending upon such things as how tough, how sticky the material is, needle thread combination, etc.

3 hours ago, Dave84 said:

The next step up into walking foot industrial machines is a significant jump to $3000-$10000. 

Yes there is a large price jump once you go above the capability of sewing consistently greater then 3/8".

3 hours ago, Dave84 said:

Does Juki make a medium duty leather sewing machine that can handle heavier garments?

Yes Juki does have medium duty machines that are rated for 3/8" like the compound feed Juki DNU-1541"S" flatbed and the compound feed Juki LS-1341 cylinder bed but once again if you are consistently sewing in the 1/2" or greater you are probably going to run into the similar problems. The compound feed on those machines (needle. feed dog and presser foot) will help to move the material along much better then the ordinary walking foot machines. The price of those machines: Juki DNU-1541"S" about $1800 USD and the Juki LS-1341 about $5500 USD.

If you can figure a way around reducing the seam thickness like skiving by hand or by machine to be around 3/8" or under then i) price of a new machine becomes reasonable ii) you may not have to replace your existing machine.

kgg