Adler 104 stitch length - adjustment manual

[Pterytus]

On my machine forwards and backwards stitch length are not equal, so when changing direction the stitch-holes do not match which is not very good for locking stitches etc.

So is there an adjustment manual for the Adler 104/Adler 4 (w/o needle feed) available out there somewhere?

Quick fix would be if someone could tell me how to adjust this. I only have adjustment manuals for compound feed machines which work differently.

 

[Constabulary]

Adler 104 / 105 came with different stitch length adjuster levers. I guess you have the early one (pretty similar to Pfaff 145 but larger)?

Please post pictures of your machine.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Constabulary

[Pterytus]

Right, it's the one with the early threaded metal adjuster knob, oh, and it's a -4 subclass.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Pterytus
jpg instead of large tiff

[Constabulary]

Haven't done this on a 104 but I would guess you can equalize the F & R stitch length by repositioning the feed eccentric on the top shaft. However unequal wear on the stitch length scale plate or the wedge piece on the stitch length lever which touching the scale plate may cause uneven stitch length as well. But I can´t tell the condition from this picture.

Or - just a guess - have you tried to turn the wedge piece on the stitch length lever by 180°? You never know...

Edited December 8, 2019 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

BTW - the check spring is hanging loose, it should rest on the pin sticking out of the oval hole near the lower tension unit

[Pterytus]

Thanx, good points. The scale plate is a little worn, this shouldn't have too much of an effect cause it's not too bad, but I'm going to check that at first, also the wedge piece. If that's not it - which I expect - I'll have to adjust the eccentric trial and error style, I guess ;-)

And yes, the check spring was misplaced (pretty obvious, now that I look at the picture again...). I corrected this when I tried to thread it (after the photo was taken) but thank you for the tip anyways.

[Pterytus]

Ok, so it's not the wedge piece, which works the same 0° and 180°. The scale plate is worn only in certain areas (f/r approx. the same amount btw.). Test in worn and not-worn areas still result in different stitch lengths f and r.

Adjusting the eccentric helped, but didn't completely equal out f and r feed (still 8.5f to 7.5r). Further rotation only results in backwards transport at the end of forwards movement - which can't be the solution, obviously.

So a little nonconlusive here - but hey! Who wants to go Backwards anyway...

 

[Bert51]

I have an Adler 105-6 and sadly awhile back I jammed it up and my stitch length went south. I have 8mm forward and about 6mm reverse, by Uwe's stitch length guide.

When I changed my machine from 7x1 needles to 328 needles could not have tighten the allen screws enough on the drive dogs and they moved. I quickly took the head off the table and as I did not mark the final position I took a guess where it should be and finished the sewing.

Sadly I did not get it where I want it, but when it annoys me enough I will take it off the table and do it properly.

Bert.

[Pterytus]

Well, I'd strip it, if only I knew where to start tweaking. Turning the eccentric on the main shaft does not do the job and I don't know where else to look but I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of adjustment somewhere somehow...

On the furthest dead center of the feed dog (nearest to the back of the machine), there is nearly no gap in the stitch plate. And lots of gap in the stitch plate on it's nearest dead center (nearest to the front of the machine), so the feed dog seem to be off center by quite a bit.

When the feed dog is in it's furthest dead center and I change from f to r the feed dog moves to the front first but goes a litte back in the end. This is the "missing" r feed travel.

When the feed dog is in it's nearest dead center and I change from f to r the feed dog moves a little further to the front first and then all the way to the back, accordingly.

I have a small smooth running Haid&Neu Torpedo which works pretty similar to the Adler design-wise (two or so notches down the size-o-meter). I think I will play with it a little to try and unterstand what's going on. If I get to the bottom of it on the H&N it's just a matter of bigger screwdrivers for the Adler.

[Bert51]

I used the manual from the Adler 205-370 as my guide.

I was told to use them by the Adler mechanic here in Australia. The instruction are similar to 105 or 104.

Here is the operators English version, https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/export/sites/duerkoppadler/commons/download/public/205-370/B_204_370_EN.pdf

Service manual, https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/export/sites/duerkoppadler/commons/download/public/205-370/S_204_370_DE_EN_FR_ES_IT.pdf

Bert.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bert51

[Pterytus]

Great, thanx! Maybe the solution is somewhere in there.

[Bert51]

I have pulled the information that I needed as a word doc, but it is to big to post here.

If you don't mind giving me your email in a private message, I will email it to you.

Bert.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bert51

[Pterytus]

So I went through all the adjustment rules, but there seems to be missing something.

The description tells you to adjust the eccentric on the main shaft (and I've done that).
But that alone CAN NOT be the solution for uneven F/R-feed as it only synchronizes the needle position to the feed dog position.

So let's remove the needle. The machine still transports the fabric (correct or incorrect). So the needle timing does not affect the feed kinematic in itself and thus can not cure the problem at hand.

Next would be feed dog lift. Not relevant in this case, as it also does not affect the (in-plane) F/R feed dog movement which is the main problem (you might be able to deribelately shorten F feed to R feed length by a prematurely diving feed dog - but that's cheating).

The key problem is visible with the machine in F when the feed dog is in its in-plane dead center nearest the back of the machine. When changing to R, the feed dog moves to the front of the machine but changes direction shortly before the stitch lenght regulator reaches it's end stop and moves a little to the back of the machine again. THAT is the "missing" R feed - which has nothing to do with needle timing or feed dog lift timing. It's a result of the internal stitch length regulator kinematic (slider position, pivot points etc.) and I'm not quite sure it can be adjusted - or maybe I am missing something...

 

 

 

[Bert51]

Have you checked the position of the needle to the hook.

The eye should be no greater the an eight of and below the hook and about 1/32below at it's highest.

Here is a pic from the manual, but I do not have the gauge, I guessed.

Bert.

 

[Constabulary]

How much difference is it between F & R? Is the difference in all lever positions or just in the longest stitch length?

[Pterytus]

@Bert51

Yes, needle timing is checked and ok (I built myself something like this gauge). The machine sews ok with different needle and thread sizes, only F and R stitch holes do not match.

@Constabulary

I'd have to measure this to have the exact figures, but it's something like 10% off, I'd guess. And yes, it's in all lever positions. Otherwise I would not really mind (or would not have found out in the first place as 9mm is not my regular go to stitch length ;-)

[Bert51]

I need to reset mine as I am just enough to be a pain. It's about 8mm forward and 7 in reverse.

Mostly I am lucky enough that I can turn what I am sew and back stitch that way. I had to learn that when I use the 132K6.

From memory, it was a pain to get it to be spot on in forward and reverse, it appeared to be as the instruction said, but I have to keep fiddling to get it just right. Adjust it, stand it up try it, lay it down and do it again, I had to do it a few times. I don't know why, but it did.

Bert.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Bert51

[Pterytus]

I checked the stitch lenghts F and R for different settings of the stitch length regulator and measured 10 stitch lenghts each. First test was full stitch length, the others were changed by full knureld knob revolutions, with zero (centered regulator) being 13 revolutions in.

And the result is really interesting:

0: F97mm/10, R81mm/10 (-17%)

5: F77mm/10, R62mm/10 (-20%)

7.5: F52mm/10, R52mm/10 (+/-0%)

10: F33mm/10, R42mm/10 (+27%)

12: F14/10, R21/10 (+50%)

So with my current setup there is ONE stitch length at ~5mm in which F and R stitch lenghts are equal.

Longer stitches result in reduced R stitches, shorter stitches result in increased R stitches.

 

Would be really interesting to compare it to an equal machine (sister 104-4 from the same production year). Or maybe there is something to adjust other than what I already tried.

[Constabulary]

The 104 / 105 came with 3 (three) different stitch length levers so maybe they changed them for a reason. The last one is the simplest and close to what they have used on the class 4 model. Maybe your SLL has been replaced once...

Let me see if I have pictures...

EDIT:

So I would guess they "simplified" the SLL for a reason. But I only can guess...

I think in a time line yours is the middle model. The latest model has 2 limiters - just as the class 4 and you have to adjust F & R manually for either direction by setting the limiters.

So if you are "good with metal" you can probably reproduce the latest model SLL and solve the problem that way.

You know what I mean? Could work but again I only can guess - just my 2 cents.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Constabulary

[Pterytus]

I think I'm "OK" with metal ;-)

So I COULD in fact do something like that. But it would only partly solve my problem: On such a machine (late type or modified mine) you'd have to adjust R stitch length each time you change F stitch length, if you want it to be equal. Does not seem that practical - but in fact "solves" the problem for the company because noone can complain about, uh, what-I-do. So this could be (part of) the reason.

So a real solution would be to design something like a curve which protudes more or less outward on the R (top) side of the SLL frame and limits the SLL in the correct angle to match F stitch length.

With my data it would mean plus-material directly above 0 (center). Level-material at 5.2mm F stitch length and minus-material above 5.2mm stitch length. That way I'd only have to "flick the switch" in order to get correct (matching) R stitch length.

I believe the problem is the pivot point position of the SLL relative to the direct line between the centers of the main shaft and lever connection of the fork (below the bedplate). If the pivot point would be in line with those two centers, F and R would be exactly the same (simple geometry). On my (the) Adler 104, the pivot point is significantly off this line to one side - maybe there is a good reason for that, but this seems to result in the observed behaviour (there's a draft attached, don't know if that helps to explain what I mean :-)

It's the same on my Haid&Neu, but on a garment-sewing household machine noone really cares about unequal stitch length (or even recognizes it). If you work with leather it does matter.

So if all that is true, it is not a matter of adjustment...

[Bert51]

My 105-6 has the lock pins (wing nuts) on the Forward and Reverse Lever and I just set them where I want and sew. I know I have the stitch length where I need it.

Bert.

[Constabulary]

And how often do you really change the stitch length? Sure - depends on the project, how many items you sew and so forth.... but most folks I think will sew at 5-6mm stitch length on heavy machines like this.

[Bert51]

Normally I play before each project and get the stitch length that I want, both ways, if I am going use other size stitch lengths I mark the flat plate with lead pencil, but as I said I only use one stitch length.

If you look carefully you can see my marks in pencil on the flat plate.

Bert.

[Pterytus]

You're probably right ;-)

At first I thought it was/is a matter of adjustment. In that case, I would have preferred to get it right. So maybe it got a little out of hand once I realized it is a built in "feature". But at least I found That out in the process, so I think it was worth discussing anyways.

[shoepatcher]

Cannot believe no one in Germany beside Constabulary can help you with this problem!  That is Adler home territory!!!!

glenn