Where is the money in leatherwork?

[JLSleather]

Someone mentioned not charging enough. I know when I was in full swing, most of the people I talked to already knew it wasn't going to be cheap (I had good "word of mouth", so they knew the quality would be good). But, you can't get them all. I find that just like crossing the street, it's the one you DON'T see coming that gets you.

I lost a good sale (high volume, with good per piece price) by bidding too LOW. Later found out that the "customer" hired someone else because she figured that the most expensive one MUST be the best one. I offered better craftsmanship - on better materials - in the same time frame - and she personally knew some of the people who referred me.

On the other side ...

Remodeling the house, I asked my buddy about his job at Menards. How can they sell me a board for $.02 LESS than what they paid and make money (John Menard had just hit the 10-richest-in-the-country list). If I spend $8000 on new materials, and 1000 guys do the same this month, Menards loses $.02 THOUSANDS of times. But TENS OF THOUSANDS is in short-term CD's the whole time I'm building, and by the time I'm done John has made money. Then Stanley gives him some MORE for agreeing to NOT sell Makita tools (?) where all us boys are coming to buy stuff... you get the idea.

If this is unclear, here's one more... Al passed on a few years back, but the Stohlman's STILL get paid when one of us buys a craft book...

[hivemind]

Another thing to remember is that, given the same item, you're better off selling one for $100 than you are selling three for $30 each. I used to do a lot of work for LARPers and faire-types, and I used to work cheap, and sometimes I had enough work that I was feeling stressed a bit (I have a full-time day job), and was tearing through materials, and had little to show for it. I had no time to make anything for myself, and it wasn't fun anymore. For a couple years, I pretty much stopped making anything for anyone, except for a couple close friends who came over and brought beer.

Skip forward to a few years ago, and I decided I was willing to start doing some leatherwork for people again - but this time I about tripled my prices. A belt I would have charged someone $15 or $20 for before I now charge $50 or $60 for. A belt pouch I used to get $20 for now I get $50. And the orders are still rolling in regularly, but the volume is less and my profit is more.

[ARTISANe]

All the above replies, very revealing in themselves, point to a major problem in global economics and what I call 'the corruption of craft'. In order to make money, you have to produce cheap rubbish, sell it in volume, and it should have novelty value. Of course this is antithetical to the arts and crafts movement, but that is the world that we live in--it is presumed, in most training courses, that what we do here in the West is design things, we don't make them, that is done by other people (presumably from the East). So, as is often the case, self-taught artisan crafts people have an uphill battle to find a niche, which is usually the very high end luxury goods market, or the very low end rubbish novelty market. In other words, the heart and soul has been ripped out of craftsmanship by the masters of globalisation.

There is a third way however, and it is called ethical consumerism. With more people aware that cheapest is not best, because of the effect on the local economy and the global environment, this is something which can be made to work in our favor. The criteria for ethical production starts with you: a skilled crafts person brings value into the community that you live and work in. Then, it moves on to the materials you use. Ethical leather working means that you source your hides from as local a tannery as possible which vegetable tans its hides (thus avoiding toxic waste, needless transportation costs, and producing a much longer wearing, responsive and hypoallergenic raw material). The methods of workmanship you use are also important. It takes much more time to hand stitch an item using the time honored saddle stitch method, but it's strength and durability are unbeatable. So using traditional methods, you are creating products for life, not for land-fill. Finally, you will be keeping alive a tradition that the bankers and asset strippers have nearly managed to wipe out, so you are working for a cause, not just for money.

The next time someone says to you "But I can get that much cheaper at WalMart", just tell them where such products are sourced and how they are made and what that does to the local economy. Almost all leather 'fashion' goods, even many luxury brands, sold by chain retailers are made in Asia with cheap leather, most likely sourced from Brazilian cattle (promoting deforestation) and almost definately chemically tanned. It will be production line made using copious amounts of rubber cement, so that any stitching is purely decorative. And who makes money from its sale?: global brands and retail companies are almost all owned by private equity funds, which are based in tax havens, so all the profit is leaking out of the community, indeed, out of the country, because of the lost tax revenue. It is certainly not going to the poor third-world factory workers, and precious little to the likes of the WalMart employees.

This is indeed an interesting topic, and somehow manages to hit the nail on the head of what it means to be a crafts person today. It also strikes at the heart of what is wrong with a global economic system which sees only short-term gain and relies on the exploitation of cheap foreign labor and insatiable western throw-away consumerism. Perhaps my contribution will provoke some more thoughts, if not reactions! But this is not extremism folks! This is reality, and by sticking together we can be part of the solution, because the heart and soul of any community is skilled craftmanship.

Jim Hornby

[jbird]

All the above replies, very revealing in themselves, point to a major problem in global economics and what I call 'the corruption of craft'. In order to make money, you have to produce cheap rubbish, sell it in volume, and it should have novelty value. Of course this is antithetical to the arts and crafts movement, but that is the world that we live in--it is presumed, in most training courses, that what we do here in the West is design things, we don't make them, that is done by other people (presumably from the East). So, as is often the case, self-taught artisan crafts people have an uphill battle to find a niche, which is usually the very high end luxury goods market, or the very low end rubbish novelty market. In other words, the heart and soul has been ripped out of craftsmanship by the masters of globalisation.

There is a third way however, and it is called ethical consumerism. With more people aware that cheapest is not best, because of the effect on the local economy and the global environment, this is something which can be made to work in our favor. The criteria for ethical production starts with you: a skilled crafts person brings value into the community that you live and work in. Then, it moves on to the materials you use. Ethical leather working means that you source your hides from as local a tannery as possible which vegetable tans its hides (thus avoiding toxic waste, needless transportation costs, and producing a much longer wearing, responsive and hypoallergenic raw material). The methods of workmanship you use are also important. It takes much more time to hand stitch an item using the time honored saddle stitch method, but it's strength and durability are unbeatable. So using traditional methods, you are creating products for life, not for land-fill. Finally, you will be keeping alive a tradition that the bankers and asset strippers have nearly managed to wipe out, so you are working for a cause, not just for money.

The next time someone says to you "But I can get that much cheaper at WalMart", just tell them where such products are sourced and how they are made and what that does to the local economy. Almost all leather 'fashion' goods, even many luxury brands, sold by chain retailers are made in Asia with cheap leather, most likely sourced from Brazilian cattle (promoting deforestation) and almost definately chemically tanned. It will be production line made using copious amounts of rubber cement, so that any stitching is purely decorative. And who makes money from its sale?: global brands and retail companies are almost all owned by private equity funds, which are based in tax havens, so all the profit is leaking out of the community, indeed, out of the country, because of the lost tax revenue. It is certainly not going to the poor third-world factory workers, and precious little to the likes of the WalMart employees.

This is indeed an interesting topic, and somehow manages to hit the nail on the head of what it means to be a crafts person today. It also strikes at the heart of what is wrong with a global economic system which sees only short-term gain and relies on the exploitation of cheap foreign labor and insatiable western throw-away consumerism. Perhaps my contribution will provoke some more thoughts, if not reactions! But this is not extremism folks! This is reality, and by sticking together we can be part of the solution, because the heart and soul of any community is skilled craftmanship.

Jim Hornby

I could not be more happy and pleased with your post Amen.

For years I have said people are getting taken by Wall Mart and its cohorts, You buy cheap and then it breaks or it wears out then you go back for more, come again if you bought things made with skill and quality it would last and you would save money a lot of money.

I have been crying about this for years "WE ARE GETTING TAKEN" by cheap goods, bad ethics and foreign Labor.

More good old qaulity with skilled hands is what we need Folks.

Josh

[MMArmoury]

I feel now is a good time to "bump" this thread and keep it going. To return to the original poster's question, I am one who is trying to make a living (part time) with the craft. I am so far having my best year ever in sales and income doing it, but that is after ten years of slogging through the muck of making just "hobby" money, and also what I mean by best year is finally moving up from a few hundred bucks a year into the low thousands. But now it is finally contributing a noticeable amount in my overall income (tiny as it is) and now I am gearing up for my next major genre shift by going into "Ren Faire" stuff (gotta keep the business moving into new territory or it will just die out, too few of my regular Revolutionary War customers left alive).

By coincidence I just spent a few weekends poking around a local Ren Faire doing research, seeing what others are making and selling for leather goods and trying to figure out the best new angle for myself to start off with. And a lot of what has already been said here is so true, I spent some good time listening to these merchants as they were eager to have a fellow craftsman listen to their woes. The biggest complaint is that, yes, the public just does not understand the amount of labor that goes into a product. And one thing I noticed about virtually all the "Ren Faire" level of leather goods was that most had an abundance of quick press snap rivets to hold everything in place, almost no hand stitching to be found among any of the merchants. And half of them never bother to do any edge finishing at all. I built up my business doing all my leather hand stitched with waxed linen thread and finished edges, and I advertise my products as better researched and better constructed.

I understand that these guys are trying to cut corners on time by going with press rivets and no edging, but they are also succoming to that "Wal-Mart" fever. They are charging $30 for belts that I can do myself at the same price with hand stitching, and I have the advantage that I do stitching demos all the time and pull in customers just by being "different". If I add custom stenciling I can charge a lot more than the guys with the "Tandy-stamped" belts. What was said a few posts back is true; better to make one thing and sell it for $100 than make three and sell for $33 each, you just have to know how to pitch your product to the masses. My demos are a hit wherever I go, yet not one leather merchant bothered doing any demos either weekend at this Faire, despite one of them even being scheduled in the Faire brochure as doing demos both weekends! Lost opportunity to pull in customers! Not that I am criticizing their products, there is a market even for the plastic lined leather mugs, but soon there will also be a market for my pitch-lined flasks. The more the merrier, but to survive in a craft business takes some "craftiness" and finding your niche. Otherwise you are going to get pretty tired pulling the arm on your rivet press machine as you make more and more stuff yet you wonder why you can't turn a profit.

And lastly, one of the guys told me a story about a craftsman who makes custom cowboy boots. One set he had on hand went for $8K, and he made another for a Hollywood star for $30K. So much for Wal-Mart Fever.

My webpage with a short video of my demos: www.freewebs.com/mmarmoury

[Penden]

couple things I wanted to add -

When we do shows and my husband is making stuff right there, people love that. When I see stuff like that it draws me in, too. Makes me feel like the crafter knows what they are doing. And on that note, holding a conversation with a customer and actually knowing about their hobby/whatever is great for that same reason. Know what your customers need and want when it comes to your product.

Also, customization and uniqueness. I have gotten a lot more interest in my work when I let people know that I will customize their work. This is something that walmart just cannot duplicate. Of course the customer is not always right, but don't take for granted the amount of customization you can do easily that might impress your customers. I've had people order from me after learning that I will do it in the color that they want. To me that is "duh!" but to them that is being flexible and caring about what they want.

Pricing. Whenever I add a new product I do a lot of research on what other people are charging, and if possible I only count products that are also handcrafted like mine. I might offer a discount to the first couple of customers who will try out a new product, but beyond that I do not go below what other people are selling for a similar item. If you charge too little, it will cause people to undervalue the work and either go somewhere else or expect all your items to be too cheap and to be ready right away. If the $ is too much for them even after you talk your work up, that is just too bad. There is a certain point where the time and effort put into it can't be undervalued. Either you need to be patient and wait for the right customer, or you need to find another way to do that item better and more efficiently, or you are selling the wrong kind of item or bad design. The only exception might be if the item goes with another item. Selling a set of something can make you more money in the long run when you can add $20 to the set for an item that takes you 20 minutes and $5 of material. Then you start making your $ for the time and effort spent on the large item that you can't seem to sell by itself.

[8thsinner]

After doing our first stall the other day I have a few more insights which I am going to take to the next stall on saturday ( a movement festival we were invited to after another stall holder there saw our work )

Raised platform, standing behind a table 3foot high looks wierd, but stick a cardboard box on one end of the table raising it another foot gives you a better look. (not like your lazing around.

Raising and displaying pieces...a few other stalls had raised items which look more presentable, this time we are going with about 30 coke bottle tops, cut like an inch in thickness under our display cloth to raise the items. Hopefully this will be more presentable on two fronts, both supporting recycling and highlighting.

We never had a free catologue notice, so people weren't happy all the time to just take one...Were changing that.

In light of some of the above tips, we will also be braiding at the stall and promoting the custom thing more....

Good bump.

[Shadowsbane]

couple things I wanted to add -

When we do shows and my husband is making stuff right there, people love that. When I see stuff like that it draws me in, too. Makes me feel like the crafter knows what they are doing. And on that note, holding a conversation with a customer and actually knowing about their hobby/whatever is great for that same reason. Know what your customers need and want when it comes to your product.

Also, customization and uniqueness. I have gotten a lot more interest in my work when I let people know that I will customize their work. This is something that walmart just cannot duplicate. Of course the customer is not always right, but don't take for granted the amount of customization you can do easily that might impress your customers. I've had people order from me after learning that I will do it in the color that they want. To me that is "duh!" but to them that is being flexible and caring about what they want.

Pricing. Whenever I add a new product I do a lot of research on what other people are charging, and if possible I only count products that are also handcrafted like mine. I might offer a discount to the first couple of customers who will try out a new product, but beyond that I do not go below what other people are selling for a similar item. If you charge too little, it will cause people to undervalue the work and either go somewhere else or expect all your items to be too cheap and to be ready right away. If the $ is too much for them even after you talk your work up, that is just too bad. There is a certain point where the time and effort put into it can't be undervalued. Either you need to be patient and wait for the right customer, or you need to find another way to do that item better and more efficiently, or you are selling the wrong kind of item or bad design. The only exception might be if the item goes with another item. Selling a set of something can make you more money in the long run when you can add $20 to the set for an item that takes you 20 minutes and $5 of material. Then you start making your $ for the time and effort spent on the large item that you can't seem to sell by itself.

Penden is right, we did get a much larger number of people stop by and take cards just from watching me sew up a holster, and a flask.

Hardest part of us currently is just getting the name out, and paying the bills while we are doing so. Personalized service will go a very long way. I know I was and still am impressed with my order from K-man, and that was several years ago now. Why? Because he did what he said he would., and was upfront and honest.

We are currently still trying to find our niche, it is slow going, and frustrating, but we never had any ideas about it being a walk in the park.

[CDragonworks]

I find that when people have money to spend they tend to spend it if the item is unusual or unique. Price is a minor matter at say a Renaissance faire if they can try it on and handle it... buying off the net they don't have the chance to play with it first and will spend less! Working for one of the booths I was designing and sewing for I sold 600-800 leather outfits and the people did not blink. But the same outfit online would not sell for as much... Once an end user puts it on you have a great chance of them buying.... So if you are going to sell animal goods selling from a booth at a dog or cat show would be prime space! If I am selling Jerkins,bodices and pouches...I need to be at a Ren Faire or Con! Cat

[Bearns]

I'm glad this thread is here because it is just what I needed to read today. I've been pulling teeth dragging my feet putting off finishing a gun belt and holster set ever since the wife of the man who asked me to make it wrote "will you need compensated for making his holster..." as a facebook comment. Compensated? Why no, of course not... I just love going in the hole on supplies and spending countless hours making gifts for everyone I've ever met. NO, I did not write that... I just ignored it, waited a few days and then emailed a lengthly apology for taking so long detailing out some of the time consuming processes, like hand stitching, etc. I just have a bad feeling about this all around. When he asked me to make the holster, I told him that I did not know how and he said, "wanna learn?" And he said he would pay me for my work. So okay... I'll give it a go, but let's see how it turns out first before setting a price because with it being a first holster, not sure how it will turn out... I'd let him know what the cost of supplies were and he could add what he thinks the labor is worth based on the quality of the finished product, discuss the price when it's done and he can touch it, see the quality and/or obvious flaws. He gave me an old holster to measure to make the pattern and the artistic freedom to tool it anyway I want. (I blog about the making of this holster set at http://artbelts.blogspot.com if you're curious.) I have a feeling the true price of this leatherwork will cost a friendship as his wife seems to think I should work for free, that there is no good way out of it. Even if I just say thank you, chalk it up to a learning experience that now I know that one should always guote at least a ballpark price from the get go, I will feel like they don't value me or my work if the price is too low.