Simple chart of models & key specs

[Fognozzle]

Hi all, as you're probably aware I'm a newbie here with pretty much the same questions that have been asked many times before about finding a suitable machine.

What I'd love to find is a simple chart that lists common machine models, and just what their capacity is (let's say, maximum needle & thread size, maximum foot clearance). I realise this won't provide all the answers, but it seems like it would be a huge help when trawling through classifieds and auction sites to quickly eliminate those models that are entirely unsuitable and narrow down some real contenders for further analysis and discussion.

Does anyone know of such a chart?

If not, do others agree that this would be a useful thing? And what would you consider the absolute essential specifications to include?

[dikman]

It's been talked about before but it would be a huge undertaking - which is why it hasn't been done. Sorry. Only thing you can do is when you find something search on here for any relevant posts. As you read more you will slowly begin to understand a bit about different machines, but it's a big subject, Singer alone has a mind-boggling number of machines listed.

[Bert51]

The closest list to what you need is this one, but it is only Singer, http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/index.html

All you can do is ask here and hope some one will give you an answer, I know this is not ideal, but it's how I'm still learning.

Bert.

[Fognozzle]

That's a huge help, thanks guys. I'll see if I can make a more condensed 'shortlist' as I come across machines, I'm sure there must be a huge number of models there that we won't really run into.

In the meantime, if anyone wants to have a crack at naming, say, the 10 most popular machines of interest to leatherworkers, I'll use my black belt in excel-fu to compile the info and make it pretty 

[Bert51]

I see  a small problem with that list, I think most will have their own opinion from their style of work and you will end up with a list a mile long, let alone whether you like Singer or Pfaff or maybe Juki.

I have been looking for a list like this for years, I may just have one shortly.

Bert.

[Fognozzle]

HI Bert, maybe we could further simplify the list by making clear that it is aimed at beginners? So the machines would need to be reasonably well supported with parts and information, and not so complex (or temperamental) that a beginner will struggle with them unnecessarily.

Obviously I'm at a disadvantage here as I'm new to this hobby, but in my other hobbies I think I could generally compile a list of good equipment choices for a beginner 

[chrisash]

In the UK we see many secondhand industrial sewing machines for sale at silly (very high) money, yet the prices of some of the new starter machines have come down in price quite a lot over the last few years, for example you may pay about £600+ for a singer 111 that has seen many users or a brand new Jack with its "fit for purpose" protection at about the same price though only walking foot https://www.directsewingmachines.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=38&product_id=647

I am not saying they are equal machines but for many worth consideration, at the other end the Juki 441 clones seem to keep their very high prices, i guess by slow demand compared to the more general purpose machines 

You can see the machines of many owners in their signature on this forum which gives a good indication of what is popular and WIZ has a great review of what is required of a sewing machine for leatherwork on this forum 

 

[Constabulary]

Beginner for what - sewing horse saddles + tacks, making wallets + purses, sewing shoes + boots, producing sports equipment - there are soooooo many different branches in the leather trade...

The point is even when you make a list of sewing machines you also have to cover subclasses - meaning machines which are not necessarily setup as the most common "of the shelf machines". And subclasses can be misleading....

Sample - the Adler 69 (popular sewing machine) came in let me guess 20 subclasses and most likely the Pfaff 335 (another popular model) as well - not speaking of Singer, Seiko, Juki, Mitsubishi, Consew and an endless list of Chinese manufacturer and "re branded" machines like Chandler and so forth...  Furthermore - you often have different local brands which often can´t be bought in other countries. Try to find Wimsew, Tysew or Techsew, Atlas (Alas Levy) or THOR in Germany - no way. They sell Chinese made sewing machines and put their won brand name on it. Yes, they may be based on other "big name" sewing machine models but sometimes they have different model ID´s so you only can try to ID them by the casting. And you can only guess if they have the same specs as the "big name" models they are based on (they often do but you never know).

Back to subclasses: And even when you cover the subclasses you still do not know if the machines are still setup the way they left the factory or if they (again and again) have been modified by one of the former owners (plural) or dealers (for new and used machines) certain companies who are specialized in sewing machine modifications. Along with subclasses goes the list of motors. Sewing machines can be setup with different motors for different purposes. What we (here) want is a slow motor and as often wanted with lots of torque. Best bet - servo motor + speed reducer but most used machines are not setup like this. Of course, when you buy a new or used machine from a dealer you can discus this but used machines are often sold by private seller who probbaly bought the machine with the same intension as you and have been disappointed because the machine was not set up as he expected / needed it. So they often come as they are and not as you would expect them / want to have them.

You can ID certain machines by their data plate but you never know if they have been modified for a special application (probably even down graded) so when a newbie goes out and finds a Pfaff 335 and figured yeah - LW.net has this list and a Pfaff 335 is what I need - specs (seem) to match my needs. Bought it took it home and figure things are not as expected because the machine has been modified - for what ever reason.

Another Sample - the vintage Singer 45K came in countless subclasses and has been produced from the early 1900 up to the 1970´s or 80´s I guess and and on top they even can come as SV (special variant) where we tried to figure out what SV means (almost no records available) - I think we agreed that SV could (could !) be either an off the shelf machine with just additional accessories or a forerunner of a later standard machine or a machine which has been modified to certain customer needs. SV models not only came with the 45K class - a lot of Singer models came as SV machines and there are very very few records what in particular SV technically means. On top - 45k´s even came as darning machines which is not suitable for sewing at all (or you have to modify them to make em sew - you see modification again)

Then regarding needle and thread size - there are a lot of different opinions & experiences  - sample - some say you can use Singer 29K only for 69 or 96 thread - some have experienced you can even use 207 thread, some say Singer 31k only can use #96 thread but I have used 138 in top and bottom... and this will be the same for ALL other sewing machines too. Even when you buy new machines you can find different specs / recommendations in terms of max. needle size and thread.

This is just endless...

My 2 cents

[Silky]

Study, study and then study more.

Even when you think you are gaining on it, the light at the end of the tunnel seems to dim.

I happened upon this valuable bit of info during my recent research regarding the same subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=sTGavKjuqLc&feature=emb_title

A bit deceiving at first, but a good watch anyway.

Enjoy the journey.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Silky

[toxo]

I can see where the OP is coming from. It's not just newbies that would like a simple list. Of course you can't list everything inc subclasses but if the desirables are listed for each part of the hobby, any potential buyer can look closer or discount whatever machine is on sale. For example, when I recently looked for a cylinder arm I didn't know until a few conversations on here that having the needle close to the end of the arm is desirable if you want to sew gussets.

[Fognozzle]

I understand the complexity that Constabulary is speaking of, but as toxo says the objective would mostly be to have a quick reference to divide machines into 'unsuitable' or 'worthy of further investigation', and to also provide a shortlist of specific machines worth hunting down. As a beginner, it's rather a tall order to research every single machine in 10 pages of "industrial sewing machine" search results!

[DonInReno]

I enjoy keeping a lookout for used machines of various types and the biggest limitation to a simple list of machines would be the number of machines that would be overlooked because they aren’t on the list. 

 First, a person should read the great write up that Wiz put together, then reread it about once a week while searching for a machine.   It’s much more important to understand the design you need, rather than the specific make and model, because of the variety in rebrands, older models, etc.

The easiest thing to look for is a built in walking foot design - simple machines without one are rarely capable of sewing with heavy thread.   Of course this generalization will let machines like the Ga-5 slip past your radar.  No less than a dozen companies across the planet have marketed that old design under probably 50 different names/models.

The other danger of going off a list of used machines great for leather is it doesn’t emphasize the importance of availability of parts.   Not all good machines can be easily fixed if something is missing or broken.  Even a clone of a well supported machine may have some parts that don’t follow the “standard” design.  

Then there are unbranded and unmarked machines that can be just as good as the machine it copies, but there are zero markings or part numbers to go off of.  Special purpose industrials may be 99.9% the same as a popular model, but have been given a model number that doesn’t even give a glimpse of what it’s based on. Foreign or older machines often aren’t prominently marked.

The other machines to look out for are machines, even popular models, that have been modified for a very specific purpose, making them almost useless for normal sewing.   Book binding machines or those for some industrial products look just like some leather sewers, but may not be capable of reasonably short stitches or may be completely missing feeding mechanisms.

Enjoy your search!
 

 

 

[toxo]

This is getting more complicated that it needs to be.Don, you're looking at it from a collector type point of view but the OP and many others including myself a while back who don't know one end of a sewing machine from the other just want the simple stuff. If a machine comes up for sale locally for what looks like a reasonable price I don't want to spend a week trying to find out if it will do WHAT I WANT IT TO DO. Forgive the caps. I promise I'm not shouting. A list of desirable features is what's needed. Not a list of machines. If a local machine looks like it might do and has the required features, THEN invest the time to find out how high on the desirable machines list it comes. My first machine was a boat anchor. I bought it cos it was local, it was cheap because it had a screeching motor and I thought "I can fix that". I put new bearings in it and had it purring by which time I'd found out it was a garment machine running at 4000 miles an hour and completely the opposite of what was needed.

[Bert51]

I think this is a good Post, a lot of people are giving good information and although we all have our own opinions and ideas, to me this is great for anyone looking for ideas on what they need.

Hopefully this post can live long enough to have all this information in one place.

I just wish I found this site before I made a few of the mistakes that I have made.

My list looks like this,

Singer 132K6 for a Heavy Flat Bed Machine

Adler 105 for a Heavy Cylinder Arm Machine

Singer 31K47 for Medium Flat Bed Machine

Singer 31K20 with Roller foot

Singer 29K58  Patching

Juki 555-5 for Fabric sewing and very light Leather

and of course an Overlocker or two.

Bert.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Bert51