Straight up or Cheyenne roll?

[DirtyDusty]

i remember reading somewhere on here, where someone was discussing the cantle height and width should be considered when deciding wether to go with a Cheyenne or a straight up binding. 

I don't remember who it was, but I got yo thinking about my saddle I am building. I was planning on a straight up cantle, but I ordered the tree 4” x 12.5” cantle. Is this going to look out of place with a straight up cantle?

[EdOdgers]

That would have been me.  I was suggesting to plan out the details of a saddle before ordering a tree and in particular consider the binding type.  Straight up binding will add at least 3/4" to the height and  1 1/2" to the width.   That said, a straight up binding is usually intended to be a taller look.   My most common and favorite cantle for a straight up binding is 4" height by 11 /2" wide, tree measurements.   For Cheyenne roll 3 1/2" or 4" high by 12 or 12 1/2" wide is typical.   Occasionally I do 4 1/2" high on straight-ups and this can look good but is about the limit of where the cantle can start to interfere with the rider mounting the horse.  The 5" straight-ups I've done (not many) were "shovel" style cantles and 11" wide.   I don't like to do a Cheyenne roll with a cantle taller than 4" as it just looks odd IMO. 

Your 4" X 12 1/2" cantle can work out just fine with a straight up binding and is done quite often.  It will obviously appear fairly wide and will actually have the illusion of being shorter than a narrower cantle.  Also, the sides of the cantle will be rounder and less characteristic of a straight-up IMO.  I like a straight up to rise from the base more vertically.  It's all a matter of taste.

I posted a few photos for comparison.   The first saddle has a 4 1/2 X11, second saddle has 4 1/2 X 12 1/2, the third is 4 X 11 1/2.  Couldn't find a 4" X 12 1/2" straight-up photo but the middle one is pretty close.

[DirtyDusty]

So, I am going off 2 different resources for saddle construction, besides the help I am receiving from here.  The Watt video and the Stohlman book. Watt is doing a Cheyenne roll so obviously the procedure will differ. 

I am using a tin strainer, so would i cut the final ground seat layer to fit the entire inside of the cantle? The Watt video shows cutting it back inside the dishes, and adding the cantle filler to the inside of the cantle.  Stohlman shows adding the cantle filler back side, before adding the cantle back.

I can’t find any instructions for a straight up cantle.  Other than the stohlman book, but they are doing all leather ground seat. 

[Goldshot Ron]

Every saddle making book and CD will show you a different way to install a ground seat and cheyenne roll filler.  I personally usually fall back to a version used by Stohlman.  A leather ground seat or tinplate can be the same for either straight up or Cheyenne roll, once you have laid down the foundation.  I suggest using Watt's method on installing the Cheyenne roll filler in the dish.  This method is easier than Stohlman's.  Cary Schwarz has a style where the filler goes down deeper into the seat, but I had problems using this method and went back to Watt's method.

Also Ed, I've saved some of your photos for reference; thank you for sharing, I like your work.

Ron

 

[DirtyDusty]

1 hour ago, Goldshot Ron said:

Every saddle making book and CD will show you a different way to install a ground seat and cheyenne roll filler.  I personally usually fall back to a version used by Stohlman.  A leather ground seat or tinplate can be the same for either straight up or Cheyenne roll, once you have laid down the foundation.  I suggest using Watt's method on installing the Cheyenne roll filler in the dish.  This method is easier than Stohlman's.  Cary Schwarz has a style where the filler goes down deeper into the seat, but I had problems using this method and went back to Watt's method.

Also Ed, I've saved some of your photos for reference; thank you for sharing, I like your work.

Ron

 

I am wanting to do a straight up binding.  Are you saying to do it like Watts video for Cheyenne roll, but leave it sticking up?  The stohlman method has the cantle filler on the back side.

[EdOdgers]

For a straight up binding, I think it's important to have the seat recessed a bit so the cantle binding isn't proud of the inner face of the cantle.  This way the binding isn't being rubbed on and catching the rider's pockets.  To do this the filler should be on the back side of the cantle (traditional way) or on the back side of the cantle back for what I call a shadow roll, as in the fourth photo.  Either way, I like to fit the cantle back but not glue it on until the seat is stretched in (fitted) but not installed.  If a filler is being used between the cantle back and seat, it too could be attached after the seat is fitted but not installed.  Procedure: fit cantle back, fit seat, attach cantle filler (if used), attach cantle back, glue in seat, apply binding, stitch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by EdOdgers
clarity

[DirtyDusty]

Are you glueing a narrow strip on the back edge of the cantle back, then edging the bottom edge of that strip too?

[EdOdgers]

Yes, that's what I do for the "shadow roll" which is shown on the finished saddle above.  This creates a very round binding in cross section, with an indentation on the backside where the stitch-line goes.  Just another variation that I like the looks of.  It gives more definition to the binding as distinct from the cantle back.  The strip is a cut-off from trimming a previous seat; already has the perfect arch. 

If you want a more conventional binding that is flush with the cantle back, cut a curved filler about 3" wide and skive to a feather edge on the bottom; now glue and tack it to the back of cantle with >1" sticking above, then mold to match the intended shape of the seat (photo 2), then attach and mold cantle back, then proceed to stretch in seat and mold seat rim to cantle filler/back.  Should look the same on the cantle face but the binder won't have as pronounced indentation on the back.  I often use a binder that is split to about 8 1/2 ounce, usually 2 1/4" wide and skived a bit on the back.  The saddle in the photos below has the conventional binder without the shadow roll.  You can see in the first photo how the filler and cantle back are laminated together and molded prior to fitting the seat.

Don't forget to check the thicknesses.  I want the sum total of the seat, filler and cantle back to be the same as the height of the binding.  Note the gauge shown in photo 5.

[rktaylor]

On 5/2/2021 at 3:23 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

Also Ed, I've saved some of your photos for reference; thank you for sharing, I like your work.

I like the photo with the mirror.  

Seriously Ed, thanks for freely sharing your knowledge. You explain everything so well. 

Dusty, keep us updated on your progress. 

RT

[DirtyDusty]

Did you use a push beader around the tooling on this saddle?  If so, what size. Bruce Johnson said he has some 1/8” and 3/16” that should be ready soon. I was thinking of doing a bead with some basket tooling on this saddle.

On a side note,  I have an older Tex tan saddle that has some basket tooling. I started looking at it closer and noticed they used different size basket stamp pattern on different parts.   Never noticed it before, but when I started doing leather work, I started noticing it.