Help needed with tension issues on 441 clone.

[Watts]

I have a Thor GA441 that I’ve had for about a month and have mainly been practicing with it and have sewn a few belts and heavy horse tack items. Lately I am having issues with not being able to get enough upper tension to pull the knot off the bottom side of the piece. I will tighten tension knobs in increments and it never gets tight enough to pull it up. 

I have loosened the bobbin tension some but am hesitant to back it off too much as it was sewing ok previously with heavier leather (now I am curious if the knot was still closer to the bottom and The thicker material was hiding it). I have gone through the threading process again and again and I’m just not sure where I’ve gone wrong. Any help, ideas, and suggestions is appreciated. 

[garypl]

Try going up one size with your needle.  

[Wizcrafts]

Consult this thread and needle chart to find the range of needles best used for a particular size of thread (top and bottom). If you run smaller thread in the bobbin, use the smaller needle listed. If you use the same size thread on both sides, use the larger needle listed.

[RemingtonSteel]

Watts, Have you decreased/loosened the presser foot tension spring to prevent the foot from marking up the leather? The reason I ask is that if it is loosened too much, the leather will actually lift up off the needle plate a little bit on the up stroke of the needle. The action of the leather lifting off of the needle plate can also cause the upper thread/knot to not be pulled into the leather.  Just something else to look at just incase you did.

[Watts]

RemingtonSteel, I have done that, so I will be tightening it back down to test it again. Thanks for the tip I hadn't thought of this. 

Wizcrafts & GaryPL- I am running a 25 needle with 277 thread, maybe I should try putting 207 in the bobbin? 

Also, it was pulling the knot up on a flat test piece but when I would go to sew the gusset it was not. Related to week presser foot pressure? 

 

 

 

[Watts]

And another question, 

This machine sews well with bonded polyester, but when I've tried bonded nylon in 346 and sized up to a 26 needle it frays and cuts the needle thread reliably. Are some of these machines known to run better with poly thread or is this going to be a machine tension issue or something of the sort? 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Watts said:

Also, it was pulling the knot up on a flat test piece but when I would go to sew the gusset it was not. Related to week presser foot pressure?

It could be. I got an extra heavy spring for my Cowboy CB4500 for use with hard and extra thick leather. The stock spring was too weak in some leather, but not in others. Note, that an extra heavy spring leaves extra deep tracks in the leather!

 

1 hour ago, Watts said:

And another question, 

This machine sews well with bonded polyester, but when I've tried bonded nylon in 346 and sized up to a 26 needle it frays and cuts the needle thread reliably. Are some of these machines known to run better with poly thread or is this going to be a machine tension issue or something of the sort? 

I use bonded nylon 99% of the time and bonded polyester 1%. I have none of the problems your machine is giving you. Have you tried contacting the seller/dealer?

The thread shredding can be caused by a burr on the hook, or throat plate, or feed dog. The hook may be too far from the needle, or the timing advanced or retarded. If the machine was purchased from a dealer I would be on the phone with them.

[Silverd]

if the material you are sewing is not evenly flat on the bottom it can prevent the knot from getting pulled up into the material.  

If you are not holding the material flat against the needle plate it can cause this issue.

If there is a gap between top material and bottom material it can cause this issue.

If the material you are sewing is very stiff (Temper is high), it can prevent the knot from pulling up into the needle hole...Hence the suggestion to use the next size needle up.

Casing the leather slightly on the bottom side only can help if high temper is the root cause.  I use a misting sprayer from Tandy for this purpose.

Pressor foot pressure will effect if the knot is pulled into the needle hole as stated above.  Material should not lift off of the needle plate while sewing.

Installing the bobbin the wrong way can cause this issue.   Consult owners manual

Using a size down thread on the bottom will help

Calibrate the bobbin tension by using a single coke can (full) as a known weight source. Bobbin tension should be set such that when the can is tied on it barely pulls thread out of the bobbin.    Start there then change to suit your particular project needs

The thread must wrap 2X around the last top thread tensioner disk although the first disk has the most influence.  

 

Hope this helps!

 

Silverd

[garypl]

6 hours ago, Watts said:

And another question, 

This machine sews well with bonded polyester, but when I've tried bonded nylon in 346 and sized up to a 26 needle it frays and cuts the needle thread reliably. Are some of these machines known to run better with poly thread or is this going to be a machine tension issue or something of the sort? 

I've had issues with needle thread fraying on the upstroke when I had top tension too tight.  I generally set bobbin tension so I can pull the thread out fairly easily by hand, then adjust the top tension for the leather you are sewing so the knots are pulled up into the leather.  Some really hard leathers are just plain difficult to sew.  I had one holster that had a spot that was so hard the needle bent.  I ended up drilling a hole in that spot to allow needle to cleanly penetrate the piece.  The rest of the project was no problem - go figure!

[Watts]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:32 AM, Wizcrafts said:

It could be. I got an extra heavy spring for my Cowboy CB4500 for use with hard and extra thick leather. The stock spring was too weak in some leather, but not in others. Note, that an extra heavy spring leaves extra deep tracks in the leather!

 

I use bonded nylon 99% of the time and bonded polyester 1%. I have none of the problems your machine is giving you. Have you tried contacting the seller/dealer?

The thread shredding can be caused by a burr on the hook, or throat plate, or feed dog. The hook may be too far from the needle, or the timing advanced or retarded. If the machine was purchased from a dealer I would be on the phone with them.

I bought it second hand, but know where it was bought originally and may be on the phone with them if I continue to have issues. Thank you

[Watts]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:30 PM, garypl said:

I've had issues with needle thread fraying on the upstroke when I had top tension too tight.  I generally set bobbin tension so I can pull the thread out fairly easily by hand, then adjust the top tension for the leather you are sewing so the knots are pulled up into the leather.  Some really hard leathers are just plain difficult to sew.  I had one holster that had a spot that was so hard the needle bent.  I ended up drilling a hole in that spot to allow needle to cleanly penetrate the piece.  The rest of the project was no problem - go figure!

I believe my bobbin tension was too tight, and therefore making it impossible for top tension to ever equalize. I also tightened my presser foot pressure back down and this seems to have helped as well. Thanks

[Watts]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:22 PM, Silverd said:

if the material you are sewing is not evenly flat on the bottom it can prevent the knot from getting pulled up into the material.  

If you are not holding the material flat against the needle plate it can cause this issue.

If there is a gap between top material and bottom material it can cause this issue.

If the material you are sewing is very stiff (Temper is high), it can prevent the knot from pulling up into the needle hole...Hence the suggestion to use the next size needle up.

Casing the leather slightly on the bottom side only can help if high temper is the root cause.  I use a misting sprayer from Tandy for this purpose.

Pressor foot pressure will effect if the knot is pulled into the needle hole as stated above.  Material should not lift off of the needle plate while sewing.

Installing the bobbin the wrong way can cause this issue.   Consult owners manual

Using a size down thread on the bottom will help

Calibrate the bobbin tension by using a single coke can (full) as a known weight source. Bobbin tension should be set such that when the can is tied on it barely pulls thread out of the bobbin.    Start there then change to suit your particular project needs

The thread must wrap 2X around the last top thread tensioner disk although the first disk has the most influence.  

 

Hope this helps!

 

Silverd

Good tip for bobbin tension, haven’t heard much on that previously  other than leave it where the dealer put it and hold your mouth right. 

 

I sewed up a heavy belt this evening and it did good. Thanks for the run down. 

[Silverd]

Certainly

 

Silverd