Setting double cap rivets with a machine die... which is the "good" cap?

[ButtonLady]

Unless I'm doing it wrong (always a possibility), the cap goes in the top die and the capped rivet in the bottom.  Now I'm wondering... is one of the caps the "good" cap?  Or... should they both be identical (so you can't tell the difference between which end is which)?

[fredk]

1. I don't use a machine to set ready-rivets, but by hammer and bar it doesn't matter which end I whack

2. as far as I can see both caps are the same

3. just remember that the stem is collapsing and spreading inside the top cap and the bottom of the stem with cap will be stronger

[ButtonLady]

9 minutes ago, fredk said:

. just remember that the stem is collapsing and spreading inside the top cap and the bottom of the stem with cap will be stronger

That is a very good point (that I had not considered).

Rhinestone rivets got me thinking about this:  They're always set upside-down with a machine die (or with a hammer/pad)... at least, I've never seen them set any other way.  I wondered if the cap is the "rough" end since the rhinestone is clearly the "finished" end.

[ButtonLady]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:03 AM, ButtonLady said:

Rhinestone rivets got me thinking about this:  They're always set upside-down...

Well... what a surprise, I was wrong.   Just found a GoldStar Tool video demonstrating a spring-loaded rhinestone rivet die set.  You load the rhinestone part right-side up in the top die.  I will slink away in shame now.

[Rahere]

2 hours ago, ButtonLady said:

Well... what a surprise, I was wrong.   Just found a GoldStar Tool video demonstrating a spring-loaded rhinestone rivet die set.  You load the rhinestone part right-side up in the top die.  I will slink away in shame now.

Now translate that to a single-sided Cap rivet. Base on the bottom, with the male prong upwards, female cup cap on top.
All that happens in a double-sided one is the bottom one adds a cap, but remains male. It also therefore needs a dished anvil - for the single-sided one, I just use a flat, although I should technically use a raised-dimple anvil.

I've actually had a look at mine, and the caps are subtly different, probably because they're different production batches or sub-contracted suppliers. It's therefore important to be consistent in your setting.

From an artistic angle, being able to see the product come together as something better than a cobbled-rtogether patchwork. Although I don't pretend to Carriage Trade quality, none the less knowing what you've done is craftsman-like is satisfying.

[ButtonLady]

4 hours ago, Rahere said:

Base on the bottom, with the male prong upwards, female cup cap on top.
All that happens in a double-sided one is the bottom one adds a cap, but remains male.

After waaaaay too many YouTube videos, I have learned that rivet die action is not standardized.  Most have the cap as the "good" end, set with the leather upside-down.  At least one die set has spring action and sets the male on top with the leather right side-up.

As for rhinestone rivets... all dies demonstrated on YouTube, with the exception of Gold Star (which is spring loaded), set them rhinestone down.

 

4 hours ago, Rahere said:

From an artistic angle, being able to see the product come together as something better than a cobbled-together patchwork. Although I don't pretend to Carriage Trade quality, none the less knowing what you've done is craftsman-like is satisfying.

Agreed.  I am now on the hunt for a 3/8" shank rhinestone rivet die that is self-setting (spring action).  I may have to have it made.  Le sigh.

[Rahere]

KAM make one, sold in the UK as Green Machine. I don't know what their specs are, though.

[Rahere]

As far as right way up's concerned, I have a low opinion of social media - at least someone'll correct me on here if I'm talking nonsense! If in doubt, try it out.  Use some scrap, and learn old-school, by getting it wrong every which way, 

[ButtonLady]

1 hour ago, Rahere said:

Use some scrap, and learn old-school, by getting it wrong every which way, 

My mistakes are getting expensive.   The KAM "Green" machine is M8/19mm machine.  I actually developed a 3/8" die adapter for M8/19mm dies but when assembled is very bulky = very little clearance.  I have relatively small hands and still find it frustrating.

So... I've been fussing with closed end rivets which require a pilot hole, but what about open end tubular rivets?  Are they truly self-setting?  And some have washers and others caps?  And some posts have serrated edges? —but maybe only those with point back stones?

Just when I think I'm starting to understand what's going on... life reminds me that I really have no clue.  *bangs head*