weaver cub hand machine

[oldvet]

Hello,

I am new to leather sewing machines. I have hand sewn all my items and decided to purchase  machine from Weaver. Any one have any pro's or con's on this unit??

Thank you from New Mexico the Land of Cactus, Stick and everything that sting's or bite'z!!

 

[kgg]

You didn't mention what are you planning on sewing as there maybe other options that maybe better suited for want you want to sew. In the manual operated machines there are only three options I know of and all three can handle up to 3/4" thick: Weaver Cub (~$1800 US) rated max thread V346, Cowboy Outlaw (~$1400) rated max thread V346 and maybe V415 and the Tippmann Boss (~$1000) rated max thread V415. 

kgg

[oldvet]

I am into old time holsters both hip and shoulder also  rifle scabbards. I finally purchased one of Weavers reconditioned Cub's at a very nice price. The Cowboy Company wouldn't give me the time of day and the Tippman is the same as the Outlaw and priced at $1500 to $1700. Consew also makes hand operated machines but they run around $1700-$2500 . I make the Old style Slim Jim with a different set up for carrying on belt or shoulder. I am experimenting with different needle sizes from 160, 180 and 200.  I sew any where from 6 to 10 oz leather. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[Wizcrafts]

 

1 hour ago, oldvet said:

I make the Old style Slim Jim with a different set up for carrying on belt or shoulder. I am experimenting with different needle sizes from 160, 180 and 200.  I sew any where from 6 to 10 oz leather. Any suggestions are appreciated.

The thread size determines the best needle size, not vice versa. The rule of thumb is that for every thread size there will be a basic minimum thickness that can reliably hide the lockstitch knots. For 6 ounces that might only be #92 thread.The best needle for that thread is a #19 (metric 120). A #20 (125) can also be used to poke a slightly bigger hole.

The needles you listed, 160 (23), 180 (24) and 200 (25) are for use with thread sizes 138, 207 and 277, top and bottom. To bury the knots with #138 thread you would need about 7 to 8 ounces thickness. I'm not saying you can hide them in 6 ounces, but it will take a lot of dialing in the top and bottom tensions.

#207 thread is 50% bigger than #138 and takes a #24 needle. I recommend using that size when sewing about 10 to 12 ounces.

#277 forms fairly large knots and is best used when sewing 1/4 inch up to about 1/2 inch.

For holsters exceeding 1/2 inch you should use #346 thread with a #26 needle, or 415 thread with a #27 needle.

 

[oldvet]

Thank you Sir , for all your great info on thread and needle sizes. I do not know what the smallest size needle the Cub will take. They list a 160 with 138 top and 92 bottom. I would like to ask if it is necessary to use smaller thread on your bottom. I have run across different comments saying "yes you need to do that" and then others "no you can use the same size top and bottom. What is the reasoning for using different size top and bottom??? I have used regular sewing machines for years and never used different thread while sewing. You Sir are a SERIOUS person when it comes to machines. You have a few that I would love to get my mit'z on :O) I have in my stable the Cub, old Singer Model 15 and YES a Chinese shoe patcher that works and does a great job on lighter leather..

[Wizcrafts]

9 minutes ago, oldvet said:

I do not know what the smallest size needle the Cub will take.

If the machine uses System 7x3, 7x4 and 794 needles, the smallest I've found is #18 in 7x3 round point. That size is used with #69 thread, top and bottom. Those needles are very long and thin. They bend easily if the thread is too tight. They are also easily deflected by irregularities in the layers.

 

14 minutes ago, oldvet said:

They list a 160 with 138 top and 92 bottom. I would like to ask if it is necessary to use smaller thread on your bottom. I have run across different comments saying "yes you need to do that" and then others "no you can use the same size top and bottom. What is the reasoning for using different size top and bottom???

If I was sewing with #138 on top and #92 in the bobbin I'd use a #22 needle, not a #23. The "knots" will be loose in the holes poked with a #23 needle. A #22 will grab the locked stitches (knots) tighter. There are people who believe in running smaller thread in the bobbin to make it easier to pull up the knots in leather. That is their preference.

Other needle trades use a thick top thread for appearance only. They back off the top tension so that a thinner, less expensive thread can be used in the bobbin, which is usually prewound. This practice is popular in car seat upholstery where they use a thicker top and thinner bobbin thread for a bold top appearance.

These scenarios favor looks and ease of sewing over strength. Every stitch in a mismatched combination is only as strong as the smaller thread. This may not matter much on a seat cover but is could be the difference between life and death if a handgun holster lets go because of the stress of drawing and holstering when one thread is under-rated for the shear load. If you want to use a larger top thread, make sure the bobbin thread is strong enough to hold things together under stress.

When I sew holsters and double leather belts I use the same size thread on top and in the bobbin.

You can find the breaking (shear) strength of various sizes of thread on this page. It also shows the range of needles that are commonly used with each size of thread. When two needle sizes are listed, use the larger needle when the same size thread is used on the top and bottom, or when the material is very tough or dense.

[WMages]

I'm a new leather worker who has waded off into the craft more deeply and more suddenly than I had originally intended. After wet molding a Buck folding knife scabbard, my true first project was a basket weave 2" layered Ranger Duty belt to wear late in my career. I was profoundly shocked at how it turned out for my first build. I hand stitched that belt and while I truly love to saddle stitch, I can tell arthritis will become an issue at my age. I next bought a Cowboy 797 and made some belts on it followed by a Weaver Cub. While I've practiced a little with the Cub, I find it a little daunting still and have procrastinated using it on a serious project. But I did find on my first real attempt, when the thread tension fubared, I removed the thread and hand stitched as the stitch holes were perfect. On one more project, I used the Cub without thread just to punch a clean stitch line. This thread is giving me the confidence to see what I can do with it. I know now that if I stay in this craft, and likely will, I will one day step up to Class IV because historically, that's how I progress at things. But it seems other than having a reverse stitch, the Cub should do much of the same tasks as the Class IV at least for the heavy hobby user. I am still having difficulty turning my material 180 degrees to try to back stitch. Even with the needle down and lifting the presser foot, it sometimes seems the thread wants to bind and twist around the needle. I'm not sure back stitching is totally possible and certainly not sure I'm going about it correctly. If I can learn to make that happen, I think this Cub might do about all I need to do with thicker leather.

 

[kgg]

1 hour ago, WMages said:

I am still having difficulty turning my material 180 degrees to try to back stitch.

What size of thread with what size needle and how thick of leather?

kgg

[WMages]

Hi kgg. Currently, I'm 206 thread on top and bottom, with a 23 needle.  I'm sewing on about two thicknesses of 9-10. The machine came (second hand) with larger thread and a #25 needle.   Actually, I have had better results. It seems that I needed to let the presser foot lift and the needle in the appropriate upward position. For a hand stitch machine with a rate of one stitch per revolution, things happen pretty quickly. I'm actually getting the hang of guiding the material with only one hand. I think mostly I just need more practice.

 

[kgg]

43 minutes ago, WMages said:

Currently, I'm 206 thread on top and bottom, with a 23 needle.

I would recommend going up to a #24 or maybe a #25. Here is a good cross reference chart for needle size to thread size. ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html ). What maybe happening i) needle eye to small for proper fitting of thread ii) depending on the thickness and toughness of the leather the hole being punched in the leather isn't large enough to allow for the top and bottom V207 thread and it is being caught / jammed into a too small a space.

kgg