How do you deal with consistency in leather?

[Piko]

I am new at this. I started about 2 months ago just for fun and I use a laser to cut my leather because I live in an apartment and work at night so I can’t hammer the holes etc. I cut the design and holes with my laser. I came up with a couple of wallet designs that i like and use all the time. I have been thinking of selling them but, today I realized that I can’t seem to find consistent leather online. 
In the beginning I bought from Amazon and really liked one specific seller but I can’t keep buying from them if I plan on selling things: it’s just not sustainable. 
So I bought a hide from Tandy. A side that is. I removed what I thought it was the belly  and used pretty much the rest as, my understanding is that aside from belly and cheek/neck, the rest of the hide is good for wallets. I guess I am using the bend And the shoulder. 
Anyhow, the leather seems to have splotches on it. I didn't realize it until after finishing the product and applied neatsfoot oil that the blemishes became very apparent. I also think I might have not cut out all the belly and perhaps used some in my wallets because the quality looked really low.
Am I supposed to clean the hide before making my wallets?if so,  How do I clean it? Do I have to sand the blemishes with sandpaper? What do you guys do?

I also bought panels from Weaver leather and, although I dont see the blemishes, these are orangier than the ones I bought on Amazon  and  Tandy.

How do you guys deal with consistency when ordering?

Thank you.

btw, these are the wallets I am making.

Nvm the pictures are apparently over the size limit.
 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Piko
Picture

[TomE]

Nice work!  Inconsistent absorption of dye or oil can be caused by an inferior tanning process or surface contaminants.  The cure for the former is to buy more costly leather that typically has a tighter and uniform fiber structure.  My favorite is Hermann Oak.  If you can visit your supplier then you can feel the substance of the leather and get a feel of the inconsistancies.  Many imported hides are bleached and dry (sometimes with splotches) so they don't take up water, oil, dye consistently.  Springfield Leather Co has a Youtube video on selecting veg tan leather that addresses this.  For surface contamination, you can try removing with Fiebing's Deglazer.  Al Stohlman mentions using oxalic acid to clean skin oil and dirt before applying a finish after letting it dry completely.  1 teaspoon oxalic acid per quart of water.  I haven't tried it.

[Piko]

3 hours ago, TomE said:

Nice work!  Inconsistent absorption of dye or oil can be caused by an inferior tanning process or surface contaminants.  The cure for the former is to buy more costly leather that typically has a tighter and uniform fiber structure.  My favorite is Hermann Oak.  If you can visit your supplier then you can feel the substance of the leather and get a feel of the inconsistancies.  Many imported hides are bleached and dry (sometimes with splotches) so they don't take up water, oil, dye consistently.  Springfield Leather Co has a Youtube video on selecting veg tan leather that addresses this.  For surface contamination, you can try removing with Fiebing's Deglazer.  Al Stohlman mentions using oxalic acid to clean skin oil and dirt before applying a finish after letting it dry completely.  1 teaspoon oxalic acid per quart of water.  I haven't tried it.

Thank you for your answer. I heard Hermann Oak was good: I’ll try it next. Do you buy panels (and if so, how do you know from where are they cut -ie belly, shoulder etc)? Or do you buy whole hides? I dont have much room so the whole hide/side is a pain to cut. 
if you don’t see any blemishes on the piece you are gonna use, you don’t clean it, right? I wonder if my issue was both the low quality hide and probably I used part of the belly. I look at pictures that mark different areas of the hide but it’s hard to say where one ends and the other one starts ( bend ends/belly starts).

I’ll look into the oxalic acid

Thank you

[TomE]

I buy half hides of Hermann Oak tooling leather and bridle leather from Springfield Leather.  I've never been disappointed with the quality.  The different grades of HO veg tan refer to how many blemishes are in the leather, the tanning is all high quality, but you have to work around more defects in the lower grade leather. You can specify which piece of the cow you want.  The Springfield Leather PDF catalog has a fairly lengthy description of how to select leather for your projects, and you can call them with questions.

 

I don't routinely clean my leather, but I use Deglazer to remove any excess Barge cement when I'm assembling prior to sewing.  I do have some import hides that are difficult to cut and skive, and don't take dye evenly.

[Piko]

6 minutes ago, TomE said:

I buy half hides of Hermann Oak tooling leather and bridle leather from Springfield Leather.  I've never been disappointed with the quality.  The different grades of HO veg tan refer to how many blemishes are in the leather, the tanning is all high quality, but you have to work around more defects in the lower grade leather. You can specify which piece of the cow you want.  The Springfield Leather PDF catalog has a fairly lengthy description of how to select leather for your projects, and you can call them with questions.

 

I don't routinely clean my leather, but I use Deglazer to remove any excess Barge cement when I'm assembling prior to sewing.  I do have some import hides that are difficult to cut and skive, and don't take dye evenly.

I’ll check Springfield leather. The Deglazer to clean before stitching! That is a great tip! Thank you! Do you use it to clean the sides or even the front of the leather? I notice that the leather gets a bit dirty when I stitch but don’t know if it is the wax from the thread or the glue. I use 1882 water based glue but the deglazer should work if it works for barge. Hopefully it cleans the wax off the leather too.

Thank you again.

ps, I did notice that the Weaver leather I got it is way easier to skive than the leather I get on Amazon or Tandy. Maybe better quality leather is just easier to skive. I am waiting for some pueblo from mountain rock leather so I can compare it.

[TomE]

Deglazer is fine for the grain or flesh side, even recently dyed leather.  It will remove some of the waxy finish from bridle leather so I use it sparingly (can instead remove dried cement from waxy surfaces with a plastic or crepe eraser).  I finish my tack with Fiebings Aussie conditioner which contains wax and fixes any dull spots caused by Deglazer.

Yes, good quality leather is way easier to skive.  I think it corresponds to a higher fat content in the tanning process.  Moistening the flesh side can help when skiving low quality leather.

[Piko]

22 minutes ago, TomE said:

Deglazer is fine for the grain or flesh side, even recently dyed leather.  It will remove some of the waxy finish from bridle leather so I use it sparingly (can instead remove dried cement from waxy surfaces with a plastic or crepe eraser).  I finish my tack with Fiebings Aussie conditioner which contains wax and fixes any dull spots caused by Deglazer.

Yes, good quality leather is way easier to skive.  I think it corresponds to a higher fat content in the tanning process.  Moistening the flesh side can help when skiving low quality leather.

Thank you so much for your help.  I appreciate it. 

[Hardrada]

The first step in achieving consistency is to stop buying leather from Tandy. Next would be to buy better, nicer leather that is already finished, even split to your specifications. Whilst I don't work for them or get kickbacks, I do recommend looking at Rocky Mountain Leather Supply.

For my small goods I buy the leather from them already split (splitting is "free"**). This is the latest wallet I produced:

 

Do note that even with fine leather "consistency" (as in "it will ALWAYS look the same [in terms of shade, grain, lustre, &c.]") will just not happen. See the last photo: the thinner leather for the inner parts, split to 1 oz is a wee bit darker and shinier than the leather for the cover, which was split to 2.5 oz, even though they're the same Sully Chevre from Alran. No two animals will have the same skin and there are variables in the tanning process that will introduce small variations in final looks.

This is NOT a flaw to desperately try to avoid, unless you definitely want the uniform look of mass produced goods. These variations, "inconsistencies" if you will, are the unique signature of hand-crafted, artisanal goods, and what gives them higher appeal than those coming from a factory.

 

______________

** I put "free" in quotation marks because, technically, when you buy leather and have it split to a given weight, the splitter must give you back both the leather and the split (a.k.a. suede), but RML keeps the split. Again, technically, they're not cheating you, since it costs to operate the splitting machine and they're not charging you extra for the splitting, as others would do.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Hardrada

[Tugadude]

I would say the only way to guarantee consistency in leather products is to use an opaque finish.  In effect, you are putting a pigmented coating over the whole surface.  Nearly all of the high-end, popular purses on the market are done that way.  Plus, they order in humongous batches.

Buying leather and dying it yourself is going to be inconsistent.  You may get lucky and/or have developed the ability to control the inconsistencies somewhat, but they'll still be there.

Leather is a natural product to begin with and then you have the types of tanning and finishing into the mix and there's just a lot of moving parts.  The best way to prevent variation on a specific item is to make it out of one piece of leather.  Even then there can be variation, but it's your best hedge against it.

Many companies include a disclaimer in their advertising which explains the issue.  That way when the wallet you receive doesn't look exactly like the one you saw on your computer screen you know why.

[Piko]

42 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I would say the only way to guarantee consistency in leather products is to use an opaque finish.  In effect, you are putting a pigmented coating over the whole surface.  Nearly all of the high-end, popular purses on the market are done that way.  Plus, they order in humongous batches.

Buying leather and dying it yourself is going to be inconsistent.  You may get lucky and/or have developed the ability to control the inconsistencies somewhat, but they'll still be there.

Leather is a natural product to begin with and then you have the types of tanning and finishing into the mix and there's just a lot of moving parts.  The best way to prevent variation on a specific item is to make it out of one piece of leather.  Even then there can be variation, but it's your best hedge against it.

Many companies include a disclaimer in their advertising which explains the issue.  That way when the wallet you receive doesn't look exactly like the one you saw on your computer screen you know why.

That makes sense. For now I keep the leather undyed. I just apply Neatsfoot oil to it. The black color I achieve by using vinegar in which I dissolved steel wool and then neutralized its acid with sodium bicarbonate. It’s called mordente ferroso in italian and here, probably, ferrous acetate?

Thank you for your tips. 

[Piko]

1 hour ago, Hardrada said:

The first step in achieving consistency is to stop buying leather from Tandy. Next would be to buy better, nicer leather that is already finished, even split to your specifications. Whilst I don't work for them or get kickbacks, I do recommend looking at Rocky Mountain Leather Supply.

For my small goods I buy the leather from them already split (splitting is "free"**). This is the latest wallet I produced:

 

Do note that even with fine leather "consistency" (as in "it will ALWAYS look the same [in terms of shade, grain, lustre, &c.]") will just not happen. See the last photo: the thinner leather for the inner parts, split to 1 oz is a wee bit darker and shinier than the leather for the cover, which was split to 2.5 oz, even though they're the same Sully Chevre from Alran. No two animals will have the same skin and there are variables in the tanning process that will introduce small variations in final looks.

This is NOT a flaw to desperately try to avoid, unless you definitely want the uniform look of mass produced goods. These variations, "inconsistencies" if you will, are the unique signature of hand-crafted, artisanal goods, and what gives them higher appeal than those coming from a factory.

 

______________

** I put "free" in quotation marks because, technically, when you buy leather and have it split to a given weight, the splitter must give you back both the leather and the split (a.k.a. suede), but RML keeps the split. Again, technically, they're not cheating you, since it costs to operate the splitting machine and they're not charging you extra for the splitting, as others would do.

Hardrada, now thats a good looking wallet.

i recently  purchased some pueblo leather and a liner from RML but waiting for delivery. I laser cut the leather so I am not sure how a finished leather will behave under the laser. I guess I’ll find out soon enough. 
To tell you the truth, I don’t even know what ‘finished’ leather is.  One thing I got to point out about English is that you guys use a lot of same words to descrive something completely different-ie top as in best and apical layer. Finished as a completed item as well as lacquered or painted etc. So I am still learning the terms.

i am not sure if the Pueblo leather i bought is finished or not. 
 

Oh, and good point on the ‘free’.  Did not think about it. I went with RML because they split leather. If it cuts under my laser and the fumes don’t kill me…I guess I’ll stick with them otherwise they’d have lost a potential customer (lol). 
 

thank you for your help.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Piko

[mike02130]

1 hour ago, Piko said:

i am not sure if the Pueblo leather i bought is finished or not. 

I don't know what you mean by finished.  There is nothing you need to do to finish Pueblo.  It has been dyed and buffed with what looks like an orbital sander.  It has swirl marks.  It has a matte finish.  The edges can be burnished but I prefer edge paint.  Tokonole works well on the edges but be careful getting it on the face of the leather, it may leave spots.  Any conditioning on the grain side will darken it.  I Tokonole all the grain then put a coat of Saphir wax.  Looks better than leaving it matte and adds protection.  Pueblo will patina faster than other leathers I've used.  

[Hardrada]

3 hours ago, Piko said:

you guys use a lot of same words to descrive something completely different-ie top as in best and apical layer

Hmm, don't you bambini do the same with alto—tall and mighty?

Good-natured ribbing aside, I might have used the wrong term with "finished". What I wanted to convey was the idea of a leather that is already dyed and has had some kind of treatment applied to the grain surface so that it doesn't really require any finish such as Fiebing's Leather Balm or carnauba wax or Aussie's Conditioner to look good. You've seen tons of such leathers at RML. Pueblo, for instance would be a "finished" leather.

I've also made some goods out of Minerva (the wallet) and Badalassi Carlo's Waxy (the pipe pouch):

 

 

One reason I chose to use these leathers is that I also live and work in an apartment, a carpeted one to boot, and I don't really want to be dealing with dyes and chemicals that might end up on the carpet. The downside of this approach is that if your client wants a different colour, you'll have to order another piece of leather, or have several of the same type and weight in storage in order to satisfy clients' choices. I sold two of those pipe pouches, and each client wanted a different shade of brown, so I had to order one of each.

 

Whilst I'm not trying to knock off your laser cutting, I'd suggest using a knife to cut the leather: it's neither noisy nor messy, and in many instances is just the way to go—and no fumes, LOL. Once you get into skiving or paring, you'll have no choice but to use a blade.

[Piko]

3 hours ago, mike02130 said:

I don't know what you mean by finished.  There is nothing you need to do to finish Pueblo.  It has been dyed and buffed with what looks like an orbital sander.  It has swirl marks.  It has a matte finish.  The edges can be burnished but I prefer edge paint.  Tokonole works well on the edges but be careful getting it on the face of the leather, it may leave spots.  Any conditioning on the grain side will darken it.  I Tokonole all the grain then put a coat of Saphir wax.  Looks better than leaving it matte and adds protection.  Pueblo will patina faster than other leathers I've used.  

You put Tokonole on the whole grain side? Do you burnish it with glass or just let it dry? Then you apply Saphir wax? 
those are great tips, thank you!

[Piko]

59 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

Hmm, don't you bambini do the same with alto—tall and mighty?

Good-natured ribbing aside, I might have used the wrong term with "finished". What I wanted to convey was the idea of a leather that is already dyed and has had some kind of treatment applied to the grain surface so that it doesn't really require any finish such as Fiebing's Leather Balm or carnauba wax or Aussie's Conditioner to look good. You've seen tons of such leathers at RML. Pueblo, for instance would be a "finished" leather.

I've also made some goods out of Minerva (the wallet) and Badalassi Carlo's Waxy (the pipe pouch):

 

 

One reason I chose to use these leathers is that I also live and work in an apartment, a carpeted one to boot, and I don't really want to be dealing with dyes and chemicals that might end up on the carpet. The downside of this approach is that if your client wants a different colour, you'll have to order another piece of leather, or have several of the same type and weight in storage in order to satisfy clients' choices. I sold two of those pipe pouches, and each client wanted a different shade of brown, so I had to order one of each.

 

Whilst I'm not trying to knock off your laser cutting, I'd suggest using a knife to cut the leather: it's neither noisy nor messy, and in many instances is just the way to go—and no fumes, LOL. Once you get into skiving or paring, you'll have no choice but to use a blade.

Touche’ on the Alto, Hardrada.

I laser-cut mostly to avoid punch in in the holes. I plan in moving soon and I’ll have a better place: for now this is all I can do.

Ok, so pueblo is finished. I am still trying to make sense of conditioners, top layers etc but again, it has been two months. I am light years behind you guys. 

 Love the items btw, good job!

And thanks for the tips

[Hardrada]

2 hours ago, Piko said:

You put Tokonole on the whole grain side? Do you burnish it with glass or just let it dry? Then you apply Saphir wax? 
those are great tips, thank you!

Just apply a light coating of Tokonole to the flesh side and then go to town with the edge of the glass slicker on it:

 

ADDENDUM: I strongly recommend placing the leather on a non-marring surface (I use a scrap of soft-temper deerskin), because you'll be applying quite a bit of pressure on it and if you lay it on the table or cutting board you might end up marking it, specially if there are any leather "crumbs" or anything else under it.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Hardrada

[mike02130]

2 hours ago, Piko said:

You put Tokonole on the whole grain side? Do you burnish it with glass or just let it dry? Then you apply Saphir wax? 
those are great tips, thank you!

I don't use pueblo much other than the occasional small item so I use my fingers and then wipe it off with a paper towel or rag.  Wait awhile and then use the Saphir.  It gives it a nice gloss.  Pueblo is the only leather I do that with.  I discovered this when I made a mistake and spilled some on the grain side and it left a spot.  Tokonole has some wax in the formula. 

What do you plan on making and how thick is the leather?

[Piko]

11 hours ago, mike02130 said:

I don't use pueblo much other than the occasional small item so I use my fingers and then wipe it off with a paper towel or rag.  Wait awhile and then use the Saphir.  It gives it a nice gloss.  Pueblo is the only leather I do that with.  I discovered this when I made a mistake and spilled some on the grain side and it left a spot.  Tokonole has some wax in the formula. 

What do you plan on making and how thick is the leather?

Thank you!

i am making wallets. The main structure is 2mm thick (5-6 oz) and the outside pockets are 1mm (2-3oz) see the photo, that’s what I am making.

i’ve only used Veg Tan from Amazon and Tandy so far so I am yet to experiment with different leathers like Pueblo.

cant wait.

[mike02130]

That's getting a bit thick, you may want to skive the edges. Pueblo is a soft stretchy leather.  Do you have standard irons or diamond point or what?  What size are they?  Thread ought to be determined by hole size and distance.  Buttero is nice leather for wallet making.

[Piko]

On 12/7/2021 at 8:01 AM, mike02130 said:

That's getting a bit thick, you may want to skive the edges. Pueblo is a soft stretchy leather.  Do you have standard irons or diamond point or what?  What size are they?  Thread ought to be determined by hole size and distance.  Buttero is nice leather for wallet making.

Mike,

I lasercut so no irons (although i have 4mm round and 3mm dimonds). I skive the T pocket. I dont understand skiving the edge. If I do, if I understand thus correctly, it would shave bulk from the edges once they are glues and stitched. But the rest of the wallet, will be thicker than the sides the are skived. I don't ee the point in that. I like how thick the wllet is ne when i burnish it it loos like wood. Pretty cool.

 

thank you

[NDphung]

Quote

 

 

On 12/6/2021 at 11:06 PM, mike02130 said:

I don't use pueblo much other than the occasional small item so I use my fingers and then wipe it off with a paper towel or rag.  Wait awhile and then use the Saphir.  It gives it a nice gloss.  Pueblo is the only leather I do that with.  I discovered this when I made a mistake and spilled some on the grain side and it left a spot.  Tokonole has some wax in the formula. 

What do you plan on making and how thick is the leather?

Hi, Mike, may I ask which Saphir Medaille d'or cream you use, the Nappa or the Renovateur. I found that when I used on my small Pueblo test piece it darkens and smooth out the slightly texture of Pueblo (On Buttero, English Bridle or any shiny leather it doesn't do that) which kind of defeat my main appreciation of this leather. Thanks for your help

[TomG]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:11 PM, Piko said:

That makes sense. For now I keep the leather undyed. I just apply Neatsfoot oil to it. The black color I achieve by using vinegar in which I dissolved steel wool and then neutralized its acid with sodium bicarbonate. It’s called mordente ferroso in italian and here, probably, ferrous acetate?

Thank you for your tips. 

Called Vinegaroon here in the states.

Like other said. Avoid Tandy if you want a good leather. I buy from Thoroughbred on KY. Always got good stuff.

 

[chiefjason]

Consistent leather?  I've delivered $6,000 sofas with bug bites and barbed wire scars, even a few brands.  Leather is a natural product.  Used in that state, it will have some defects.  If you want defect free you are looking at very selective cutting to avoid that, which increases waste.  Or manipulating the process to hide or remove defects.  Or a man made product.  

Some people not only understand that, they appreciate it.  Other folks would be better served with man made products that are flawless or paying considerably more because the maker has to throw out more leather to only use the flawless parts of it.  

To me, the more perfect the leather seems the less natural it also seems.