ebay changes & boycott Feb 18-25

[unicornwoman]

I don't know if many of you sell on ebay or not. I have used it as a supplement over the years. The last few times I've listed, however, results were pretty disappointing.

When they changed the shipping fee policies, I really cut back with them as they were no longer willing to let me charge costs and I'm not in this as a charity. (Mind you at the "wages" I earn, you'd think that I was, but I do draw the line at paying for the privilege of giving my stuff away.)

Now, they've changed the feedback system entirely plus lied about raising fees. There's seems to be a lot of different ways to read the new changes, but it sure looks like they're trying to put the small seller like me out-of-business with the feedback system change.

A lot of sellers are upset about it and have established Feb. 18-25 as a week to boycott all buying & selling on ebay. There is also a lot of interest in alternate venues for selling.

I've been pleased at discovering that there are quite a few out there. This site will give you links to a bunch of alternatives if anyone is interested.

ebaying alternatives

CNNMONEY has a good article on the exodus:

Ebay Rivals ....

[bcurrier]

I stopped using Ebay a few years ago after uncovering one bidding scam after another - plus, the initial attraction for me was the true auction format. Most of that has given way to a pseudo-auction mechanism that's really a front for retail selling, and the prices generally can be found - or beaten - anywhere. I also routinely screen Ebay OUT of search results.

Bill

[CitizenKate]

I have done some selling on ebay in the past, but I've found better online venues for my business. I don't care for their particular auction format, as I have long felt that it encourages too much sniping. I've read all the debates pro and con, but I still feel it is a form of cheating and avoiding having to make a fair bid.

It's a good idea for anyone who sells their work online to pursue multiple venues. Avoid making your business excessively dependent on any one particular venue, because any of them can decide (as ebay seems to be doing) that they don't want or need the particular kind of business you are offering. They do have the right to make those kinds of choices. Fortunately, as you have pointed out, for any that decide they don't want your business, there are others who do.

That being said, I just took a look at their shipping policy, and don't see anything that prohibits sellers from charging a fair shipping fee that covers all the real costs, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Kate

[Duke]

what I find ironic is that that link for alternative sites lists craigslist.org as an alternative. the ironic thing about it is that ebay bought up craigslist and soon will be imposing fees.they are in the process of it right know. I have heard from a few businesses that when you go to post an ad for labor, you are charged a listing fee. as with all things, it starts small and spreads.soon everyone will go back to listing in the newspaper agian, since there is a small section in it(usually) that you can list an item for 2-3 bucks.

[Art]

Hi Kate,

What is sniping? Bidding at the last minute? I just can't see how that is cheating. That is like casinos considering card counting cheating. If God gives you the brains or drive to do something legal, why not? I think the eBay format where the auction is open for 5 or more days causes the sniping. In a real auction, decisions are made and it is all over in a minute at most. In an eBay auction, it is also over in about a minute too, the last minute of a seven day auction. The fact that all the action takes place in the last minute makes it like a real auction, that is how a real auction works. Now if you don't want to play in the auction format, there are the eBay stores or any of a multitude of other Internet and non-Internet channels to move the goods. eBay puts a lot of eyes on the merchandise which makes it a sandbox a lot of folks want to play in; it's eBay's sandbox and we all should play by their rules. There are a lot of things Baaaad about eBay, but playing by the rules ain't one of them.

There are however a lot of folks that really cheat the eBay system, and eBay itself does a terrible job of policing them, probably because eBay is not the one being cheated or hurt.

Art

I have done some selling on ebay in the past, but I've found better online venues for my business. I don't care for their particular auction format, as I have long felt that it encourages too much sniping. I've read all the debates pro and con, but I still feel it is a form of cheating and avoiding having to make a fair bid.

It's a good idea for anyone who sells their work online to pursue multiple venues. Avoid making your business excessively dependent on any one particular venue, because any of them can decide (as ebay seems to be doing) that they don't want or need the particular kind of business you are offering. They do have the right to make those kinds of choices. Fortunately, as you have pointed out, for any that decide they don't want your business, there are others who do.

That being said, I just took a look at their shipping policy, and don't see anything that prohibits sellers from charging a fair shipping fee that covers all the real costs, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Kate

[bcurrier]

What is sniping? Bidding at the last minute? I just can't see how that is cheating.

I don't think it's cheating either. What I do think is that the fixed end date & time format that creates sniping introduces a bidding aspect that winds up wasting bidders' time and encourages over-bidding through uncertainty.

It's EASILY fixed by automatically extending the auction's end by, say a couple of minutes every time a bid is made in the last 5 minutes of the auction.

Bill

[tazzmann]

I don't think bidding at the last minute is cheating either, with one caveat: It should be done by a human and not a computer. Many of the last minute bids are done via a computer program at the last few seconds of the auction while the bidder is out playing golf or some such, making it hard for those who don't have the sniping software to make a fair bid. That is why I don't do a whole lot on e-bay any more.

[Art]

Hi Bill,

I think a couple of minutes is excessive, but one minute or even 30 seconds would be fair. If two bidders start going at it at the end two minutes might be boring. But your idea sure makes it like a real auction, open till someone wins. Then the only thing you have to address is the folks who put auction closes in the middle of the night. I don't know if closing after the last bid would change much though, I do everything on auto, I put in what I will pay max and let the eBay computers bid for me; you gotta trust eBay on that one, but I've never been screwed.

Art

I don't think it's cheating either. What I do think is that the fixed end date & time format that creates sniping introduces a bidding aspect that winds up wasting bidders' time and encourages over-bidding through uncertainty.

It's EASILY fixed by automatically extending the auction's end by, say a couple of minutes every time a bid is made in the last 5 minutes of the auction.

Bill

[bcurrier]

Boy do I hear you concerning late and off-hours auctions! When I go to a live auction these days, I'm pretty worn out by the time it gets to 10:00 or 11:00 PM. I've gotten in the habit of asking to have items brought up early if I'm only interested in one or two. That's usually not a problem, as long as the auction isn't being conducted simultaneously on-line where people are relying on the lot order and any time estimates.

Bill

[unicornwoman]

That being said, I just took a look at their shipping policy, and don't see anything that prohibits sellers from charging a fair shipping fee that covers all the real costs, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.Kate

When they changed their shipping policy last year, they had a tutorial that took you through acceptable and unacceptable. Those examples showed strict rules on what they thought a reasonable handling fee was (pretty much nothing) AND they disallowed the cost of taking a package to the PO. With gas around $3.00/gal, I'm not supposed to charge a penny for the cost of going to the PO, even if it is the easiest and most secure method of shipping for my circumstances. It doesn't matter that my local PO obviously didn't want me calling them for pick-ups for 1 package. It doesn't matter that the mail on my street has been vandalized. I'm supposed to cover those costs myself.

what I find ironic is that that link for alternative sites lists craigslist.org as an alternative. the ironic thing about it is that ebay bought up craigslist and soon will be imposing fees.they are in the process of it right know. I have heard from a few businesses that when you go to post an ad for labor, you are charged a listing fee. as with all things, it starts small and spreads.soon everyone will go back to listing in the newspaper agian, since there is a small section in it(usually) that you can list an item for 2-3 bucks.

The ebay alternatives site has only been up a week or two, so is a work in process. I've emailed the owner to LMK about that. Thanks pointing it out.

[Randy Cornelius]

I was told there was a computer program out there that would bid for you on ebay that would submit small bids up to sever times per minute or faster not letting anyone else the ability to log on and bid. Just what I heard don't know anyting about it.

[Warren]

I'm with Art on the sniping thing. I put in what I'm willing to pay and forget about it. If I win great and if I don't oh well. I also agree with Bill that you have to be careful and know what your bidding on. Many times I can buy an item new locally and beat the E-bay price (New or used.). Thats with paying local sales tax. There aren't any shipping costs added and I don't have to wait for it to be delivered. As for selling on E-bay the big problem with selling handmade or custom items is that most people looking to buy on E-bay want a bargain myself included. In the beginning this was why almost everything for sale on E-bay were used items that people wanted to get rid of and make a little money off it in the process. Ta da a huge online garage sale or flea market. Now a lot of what is listed is new. In other words people have time and or money invested in the item that they need to recoup. That is something entirely different than making a few bucks from your unwanted used items. Even some of the used items that are now listed are coming from estate, junk and garage sales that people purposely went out and bought for the sole purpose of re-selling on E-bay. People are making a business out of just that aspect of E-bay. That is a whole other animal than what it started out as. I have never tried to sell anything on E-bay so I know nothing about their shipping policies. Having said that, it would make sense to me to cover your handling cost by including it in the reserve price of the item you are listing. Just my two cents worth. Warren

[Warren]

Oh yeah Melody, I forgot to tell you thanks for the links to the websites and that I went to look at your website. Very cool!! I don't know how you do that but it's impressive. Warren

[unicornwoman]

Oh yeah Melody, I forgot to tell you thanks for the links to the websites and that I went to look at your website. Very cool!! I don't know how you do that but it's impressive. Warren

Thanks for the comments on my work!

The thing about upping your reserve price is that then ebay charges you more.

[CitizenKate]

Hi Art,

You're right, sniping is not considered cheating by ebay's rules, and I have nothing against the players who take advantage of those rules. If they want to run their sandbox that way, it's their right. But, that's one reason why I don't play in their sandbox any more.

If you want to use the analogy of live auctions (which I do attend on occasion), my observation is that there is no sniping there because the auction is usually held open for a certain amount of time after the last bid is placed. So nobody can place a bid without giving the other players ample time to reconsider their bids and place another one before the close of the auction. It's called "going... going... gone".

Kate

Hi Kate,

What is sniping? Bidding at the last minute? I just can't see how that is cheating. That is like casinos considering card counting cheating. If God gives you the brains or drive to do something legal, why not? I think the eBay format where the auction is open for 5 or more days causes the sniping. In a real auction, decisions are made and it is all over in a minute at most. In an eBay auction, it is also over in about a minute too, the last minute of a seven day auction. The fact that all the action takes place in the last minute makes it like a real auction, that is how a real auction works. Now if you don't want to play in the auction format, there are the eBay stores or any of a multitude of other Internet and non-Internet channels to move the goods. eBay puts a lot of eyes on the merchandise which makes it a sandbox a lot of folks want to play in; it's eBay's sandbox and we all should play by their rules. There are a lot of things Baaaad about eBay, but playing by the rules ain't one of them.

There are however a lot of folks that really cheat the eBay system, and eBay itself does a terrible job of policing them, probably because eBay is not the one being cheated or hurt.

Art

[CitizenKate]

Hi Warren,

You just brought up my second big reason for not selling on ebay any more. A flea market is not the place to sell handmade work.

Kate

As for selling on E-bay the big problem with selling handmade or custom items is that most people looking to buy on E-bay want a bargain myself included. In the beginning this was why almost everything for sale on E-bay were used items that people wanted to get rid of and make a little money off it in the process. Ta da a huge online garage sale or flea market.

[Art]

Hi Kate,

I still have a problem with being called a cheater. I snipe and auto bid, I put my maximum price in the auto bid, I win or I lose, I don't cheat.

Art

I don't care for their particular auction format, as I have long felt that it encourages too much sniping. I've read all the debates pro and con, but I still feel it is a form of cheating and avoiding having to make a fair bid.

[CitizenKate]

Art,

Perhaps I used a poor choice of wording when I said that. In some places, sniping is considered acceptable, and in others it's not. If you use sniping tactics in places where it's considered acceptable, I have nothing against you. But it does affect my choice of whether or not I would sell there.

Kate

Hi Kate,

I still have a problem with being called a cheater. I snipe and auto bid, I put my maximum price in the auto bid, I win or I lose, I don't cheat.

Art

[bruce johnson]

I have been satisfied with ebay as a buyer and seller. As a buyer, the automatic bidding takes the time and emotion factor out of it for me. I set my max and let it roll. I have sold a few used saddles, and some other things on ebay. The sellers fees charged even on the higher dollar stuff was way less than comparable commission rates at any auctions I have been around, or consignment fees at local feedstores. Ebay really doesn't do or allow things that aren't done at any other auction, except they haven't started charging buyers premiums yet.

[rawhide1]

I too figure the top price I want to pay and let it go from there if someone wants to pay more in the last minute than so be it. And I want everyone to get the money they have coming to them for the shipping and handling. But with that said a person would have to drive pretty far and use a dang nice box to justify a $5-$10 handling fee. I guess I figure that when I sell something to somebody getting it in a box and taking it to wherever to be shipped is in the price I sell it for. So then all I need to do is charge actual shipping. Just my .02cents worth.

Mike

[tonyc1]

Hi Kate,

What is sniping? Bidding at the last minute? I just can't see how that is cheating. That is like casinos considering card counting cheating. If God gives you the brains or drive to do something legal, why not? I think the eBay format where the auction is open for 5 or more days causes the sniping. In a real auction, decisions are made and it is all over in a minute at most. In an eBay auction, it is also over in about a minute too, the last minute of a seven day auction. The fact that all the action takes place in the last minute makes it like a real auction, that is how a real auction works. Now if you don't want to play in the auction format, there are the eBay stores or any of a multitude of other Internet and non-Internet channels to move the goods. eBay puts a lot of eyes on the merchandise which makes it a sandbox a lot of folks want to play in; it's eBay's sandbox and we all should play by their rules. There are a lot of things Baaaad about eBay, but playing by the rules ain't one of them.

There are however a lot of folks that really cheat the eBay system, and eBay itself does a terrible job of policing them, probably because eBay is not the one being cheated or hurt.

Art

I totally agree with you, Art.

[tonyc1]

I too figure the top price I want to pay and let it go from there if someone wants to pay more in the last minute than so be it. And I want everyone to get the money they have coming to them for the shipping and handling. But with that said a person would have to drive pretty far and use a dang nice box to justify a $5-$10 handling fee. I guess I figure that when I sell something to somebody getting it in a box and taking it to wherever to be shipped is in the price I sell it for. So then all I need to do is charge actual shipping. Just my .02cents worth.

Mike

And I totally agree with you as well as Art.

[Studio-N]

I have just dropped my eBay store mostly because the increase in the Final valuation fee to 12%.

I will probably still sale an occasional auction but not very often. I still find it a decent place to

find old items for various of my hobbies so I will still buy there. peace.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Studio-N

[unicornwoman]

I too figure the top price I want to pay and let it go from there if someone wants to pay more in the last minute than so be it. And I want everyone to get the money they have coming to them for the shipping and handling. But with that said a person would have to drive pretty far and use a dang nice box to justify a $5-$10 handling fee. I guess I figure that when I sell something to somebody getting it in a box and taking it to wherever to be shipped is in the price I sell it for. So then all I need to do is charge actual shipping. Just my .02cents worth.

Mike

I calculate shipping costs separately as I feel adding it in to each and every item means that the customer that buys multiple items from you is paying more than they should.

As for costs, I crunched the numbers on this on another forum back in April 2006. I'm feeling lazy so will just use those numbers again.. Note that gas and postage has gone up since then. As gas has gone up, all new shipping supplies have also gone up.

It takes me about 30-60 mintues to pack an order. I prefer to ship at the PO as it is more secure. That takes 15 minutes to get there, mail, and get back. That is assuming I have the package ready to drop in the slot. If I have to stand at the counter for extra services, it takes longer.

A normal business would have to pay an employee minimum wage for this task. It is unfair to think that because I'm a sole-proprietor that I should work for free. So, let's assume $6/hour as "wages" for my time. (That's about minimum wage, isn't it?)

That gives us costs of:

Minimum time 45-60 minutes: $4.50-$6.00

Trip to Post Office at 2006 IRS deduction rate of 48.5 cents-- 6 miles=$2.91

Right there, the cost is $7.41 - 8.91 per order WITHOUT SHIPPING SUPPLIES or POSTAGE.

I currently charge $7.50. You can see that doesn't cover 2006 prices, much less today's. When I set it, I took into account what "real" companies that don't require a minimum order charge for shipping as I don't require a minimum order. I set the price on low side of that. As it doesn't cover my time, gas/wear on the car, on my postage many days, I don't feel it is excessive at all.

Edited February 8, 2008 by unicornwoman

[gunfighter48]

I charge $12.00 Shipping & Handling on all my belt and holster shipments. But all my stuff goes Priority Mail, $8.95 anywhere in the 48 states, the rest goes towards labor. I know I'm not covering the labor involved but that's the way it is.

John