Ferdco's Lower Needle Guide

[amuckart]

I'm curious about how the lower needle guide on Ferdco machines works. Can anyone post a picture of it?

Thanks.

[stelmackr]

I'm curious about how the lower needle guide on Ferdco machines works. Can anyone post a picture of it?

Thanks.

Note sure what kind of picture you want, but here is some information.

As I understand from Cheryl, from the former FERDCO company (they closed in june 2012), the major difference between the FERDCO Pro-2000 and the machine it is cloned from (JUKI-441)is the following (taken from the www.ferdco.com page:

PRO 2000/ PRO 2000HH/ PRO 2020: Juki 441 and any of the knock off models of the 441 parts will work. The attachments, the Lower Needle Guide and the Throat Plates we special made by FERDCO Corp and can not be found anywhere else. You can replace the throat Plate and the Lower Needle Guide with the original Throat Plate and Feed Dog from the 441 models.

You may try contacting Cheryl at ferdco@live.com for more information.

Hope this helps.

Bob Stelmack

[dirtclod]

Here's some pictures of my machine. It's a Juki Ferdco Pro 2000 if that's makes any difference. These may be pictures of what you were asking about, if their not ill take some more for ya.

[Sylvia]

Now the trick is to find out who they had make the special parts and get them to make after market ones.

[stelmackr]

Now the trick is to find out who they had make the special parts and get them to make after market ones.

Sylva,

Cheryl said the FERDCO parts were patented, so I'm sure replication of the parts will be under some license arrangement.

Bob Stelmack

[Sylvia]

Sylva,

Cheryl said the FERDCO parts were patented, so I'm sure replication of the parts will be under some license arrangement.

Bob Stelmack

Good point... but with as many ferdco owners there are out there... it might be worth the maker's while to gain that permission. And it could provide Ferdinand with some residual income.

[Art]

That thing should be pretty close to off patent now. It is really desirable for lightweight needles where you can do some bending. If you have a saw, grinder, and buffer, you can modify a dog from a blanket set or a smooth dog from one of the 441 clones to act as a lower guide. It was a good idea at the time as nobody made a dog for a slot plate machine. I've had a slot plate on mine since I had it and have never even wished for a (lower) needle guide.

Art

[amuckart]

The patent expires at the end of 2015, and searching for it has told me what I wanted to know about how it works.

Cheryl, who is excellently responsive, said they are negotiating with an unspecified manufacturer to take over production of the needle guides.

1343798390[/url]' post='258819']

Here's some pictures of my machine. It's a Juki Ferdco Pro 2000 if that's makes any difference. These may be pictures of what you were asking about, if their not ill take some more for ya.

Thank you for those, much appreciated. Pictures of the part I'm thinking of would mean taking the needle plate off, so don't worry about it, I finally found the patent documents which have pictures.

Cheers.

[Sylvia]

yeah Cheryl is really a nice lady.

[amuckart]

Hi Art,

It was a good idea at the time as nobody made a dog for a slot plate machine. I've had a slot plate on mine since I had it and have never even wished for a (lower) needle guide.

Do you have a dog on your slot plate?

[Art]

Hi Al,

No, I run it bare bones. I made one, as I said, ground it down from a blanket dog, and it worked ok. I made it so it fit up into the slot, but kept it below or flush with the top of the plate. I'll look for it, it is around here "someplace". It became more trouble than it was worth because I was having to change it out when I used the bag plate, I probably could have modified it to work with the bag plate too, but I've never had troubles with the standard slotted plate or bag plates by themselves. I'll try and hunt it down and post some pics, or I'll just make another one.

Do you know the patent number?

Art

[CowboyBob]

I knew I had a pic of the guide on a 97-10 it just took me a while to find it.

Bob

[amuckart]

Hi Art,

No, I run it bare bones. I made one, as I said, ground it down from a blanket dog, and it worked ok. I made it so it fit up into the slot, but kept it below or flush with the top of the plate. I'll look for it, it is around here "someplace". It became more trouble than it was worth because I was having to change it out when I used the bag plate, I probably could have modified it to work with the bag plate too, but I've never had troubles with the standard slotted plate or bag plates by themselves. I'll try and hunt it down and post some pics, or I'll just make another one.

Thanks. I wasn't sure I was reading your previous post right. A while ago I asked what left foot was used for and was told it was to allow the roller guide to get right up against the side of the inner foot, which made good sense. When I was sitting staring the bits I'd pulled out of my 441 in the process of getting the @!$#%!@# thing going, I got to thinking about the lower needle guide in my #6 and the upper guides that can be had for it for using thin needles.

That got me thinking about grinding a feed dog down so it would either run under the slot/stirrup/holster plates or so that it was just the same width as the inner foot and opening up the slotted plate to match. I might still have a go at that if I can find a cheaper source of bits to experiment with in NZ. Even getting them in from China is a bit pricey just to have a play with.

Do you know the patent number?

There are a few. If you go to google patent search and search for "Ferdinand Jean Blanc" they show up[1]. The results I got from that were:

US3779184 Feed dog awl assembly

US5425320 Needle guide components for a sewing machine

US4947773 Thread ring guide for a needle bar

US5762014 Needle guide components for a sewing machine

US5520127 Needle guide components for a sewing machine

US4991526 Bed plate insert and presser foot, each having a guide surface for laterally supporting a sewing machine needle

US3759202 Self-centering foot for sewing

Mr Jean-Blanc had obviously put a lot of thought into how to make these machines sew better, and it's sad to see Ferdco closing their doors. I do hope one of the active and reputable clone makers picks the relevant ones up.

[1] You also get a hit for US5538943 "Use of 1,3-undecadien-5-yne as a perfuming ingredient" but I think that might be the odd one out :D

Hi Bob,

I knew I had a pic of the guide on a 97-10 it just took me a while to find it.

Thanks for that. Did that go on in place of the feed dog, or was it a separate part? I'm guessing it went on with the slot perpendicular to the needle travel?

Thanks.

[Art]

The earliest patent filing date is Oct 4, 1993, so they (upper and lower needle guides) run until 2013. Much of the efficacy depends on matching the guide holes to the needle size. I don't know if FERDCO marketed different sized guides for different size needles. Most factory machines run one size needle until death. In leatherworker discipline where we might run two or three sizes, the largest size would be practicle.

Art

[CowboyBob]

Thanks for that. Did that go on in place of the feed dog, or was it a separate part? I'm guessing it went on with the slot perpendicular to the needle travel? YES

The 97's came with one,they were only a needlefeed machine w/a jump foot & they had different sizes too.It mounted different on the 97 but the same principle,the biggest difference is the feed on the 97 just went front to back & the 441 also goes up & down so there's not alot of room for error when making one for a 441.

The machines Ferdco put these on had a jump foot(where the needle only is feeding)& the foot lifts,the 441's have the center foot that goes back(and help pull) with the needle & I really doubt if there would be much benefit in using it.

Bob

Edited August 4, 2012 by sewmun

[Art]

Let me 'splain it to you thus. The upper needle guide is a middle presser foot with a special hole (10 in patent), contoured to the shape of the needle with special notches cutout for the thread to pass (in the groove and on the other side). The lower needle guide is in effect a feed dog with the special notches (40 in patent) that may or may not be cut down to run under a needle plate (depending on if you want the lower guide to act as a dog too). While I don't question the theory or the practice in the case of the lower needle guide and a slot type needle plate, I do question the efficacy of the special hole contour, as generally the holes are large enough to provide for passing the largest needle AND thread without any trouble. As I said before, if you tune that hole vary narrowly to the needle size and you have a nice tight needle bar and assembly such that the holes limit any deflection, then ok, however in examples I have encountered this is not the case. Without limiting the hole size, there is really no advantage over the standard center presser and feed dog. I do think there is an advantage with the slotted needle plates, but not a lot more than cutting down a standard blanket feed dog. In the case of a 441 clone that has a smooth feed dog in the standard setup (e.g. Cobra 3 and 4), there is little to no difference. As far as the patents go, the shape of the hole has more to do with the patent than just a round hole which is covered by patents long since dead. While I am not sure this was all a marketing thing, it may have been a way to put patented parts into a machine for the sake of having them in there.

Art