BOB BRENNER

tuffcase, Hears a list. NAME NEW PRODUCT ADDRESS TELEPHONE email WEB ADDRESS A.H. Brands, Inc. 1-803-684-7756 Artisan Sewing Supplies 6474 Corvette Street Los Angeles, CA 90040 1-888-838-1408 Beiler's Mfg. & Supply 3025 Irishtown Rd. Ronks, PA 17572 1-717-768-0174 DuBois Leather & Shoe PO Box 142 DuBois, ID 83423 1-208-374-5490 Lewis Sales Co., Inc. P.O. BOX 489 Methuen, MA 01844 1-978-682-3587 Louis A. Green Corp. 77 Elm St. Braintree, MA 02184 1-800-225-3577 Luberto's Sewing Machine 215 E Kootenai Troy, MT 59935 1-800-419-9898 Maine Thread Co. 550 Lisbon St Lewiston, ME 04240 1-207-784-7770 Ohio Travel Bag 6481 Davis Ind Pkwy Solon, OH 44139-3547 1-800-800-1941 SFS Associates, Inc. 5450 Highland Park Dr St Louis, MO 63110 1-314-531-1830 Shelton-Reynolds, Inc. 11516 N Port Washington Rd Mequon, WI 53092 1-800-877-7150 Southern Thread, Inc. 4020 Industry Dr Chattanooga, TN 37416 1-800-593-7397 TEXAS THREAD MGF.CO. 2222 WILSON ROAD HARLINGEN, TX 78550 1-800-840-3670 Also try Weaver. Bob

David called me on Thurs and said he has to cancel some classes as he had over booked the Holiday. He cancled my pricing class and the ASMA Saddle Makers Breakfast Gathering would have to find another venue. Bob

Gary, I agree with you about critical fit. I should have phrased my thought better. When the cowboy type has a problem with the saddle not fitting the horse exactly, he will usually pad accordingly and if that does not work put the horse out to pasture, not call the vet or saddle fitter and start looking for another saddle. Thus an exact fit is not critical. Newfman, I work both sides of the street. A big portion of my business is English repairs and custom bridles and have made three saddles just to see if I could. From your post I see you have met or know a "Dressage Queen". I see an example of your comments about the Jaguar almost daily. Denise, I believe your are right about saddle fitting coming from the English discipline. There has been a large crossover from English to Western over the years. I have many clients who can be on their warmblood in the dressage ring in the morning and on a QH trail riding in the afternoon. This crossover population have brought their ideas to the western discipline with them and some of these ideas have been expanded. A couple days ago I was reading an article in a horse magazine tilted "Is Your Saddle Doing Its Job?" that said this "...from 100 years ago, tree width has changed little, with the 6.5 inches at top of bars at the front of the pomel being the common definition of "semi quarter horse" bars. This limited width choice provided by the vast majority of trees used today by western saddle makers gives little chance of getting a good saddle fit. This "one tree fits all" approach is for the convience of saddle manufactures not for the need of consumers." First time I have heard that gullet width determied "sem-QH" bars and gullet width was the main reason saddles don't fit. I did a little research and found the author’s website and it was English based, along with endurance riding. The reader could not determine the author’s slant from reading the article, which inferred that the way we make western saddles is all wrong. There many examples like this I have seen over the years. I have questioned these concepts or ideas in these articles, but once the concepts or ideas are in print good or bad it has "authority" and people will pay attention. These crossover ideas and methods coupled with a different mind set of the "recreational rider" has changed the landscape. It has been my experience in the past when a horse was sent to a trainer it would be for say 60 to 90 days and one took riding lessons for a few weeks. Now it is not uncommon for both horse and rider to being constant training. Also, because of the "recreational rider’s" lack of general horsemanship knowledge they tend to rely on their trainer/instructor for their "expert" advice or other professionals such as a Vet or clinician and will follow that advice to the ‘t’. IE. micro saddle fit or your need this saddle or you have to have this bit, etc. Also, this group can be very competitive. If they feel that saddle fit could give them an edge they will do it. This segment has changed and is changing the horse industry. If a genie told me 20 years ago that in 2010 we would see – Vets that specialized in chiropractic and acupuncture or computerized saddle fitting systems, people who specialize in massage for horses, have several riders stop by for a little wine and cheese... I probably have said you have got to be kidding, but that is what I have in my market now. This segment have invested a lot time, money, and effort in their advisors and do not take it kindly if you disagree. As they say "follow the money". When one spends thousands of dollars on a trail horse, my advise to get rid of the horse does not fly, they want me to solve the problem or they will find some who will. Also, they will not speak kindly of me as a saddle maker and this segment networks with each other all the time. This saddle fit thing is out there and I think each of us will need to address it in some shape or form. Once the bell has rung, it can’t be un-rung. Bob

I am somewhat new to this media, as you can see from the date I joined. Kudos to everyone involved; it is a great asset to the industry. While the snow was blowing sideways this weekend I spent time educating myself on the various topics and found the three year long discussion on saddle fit very interesting. Mr Watt’s statement on the OK Corral is spot on,"Them there is fighting words" I have spent a lot of time over the years on the subject of saddle fit, and have made several observations. It seems that the saddle fit question can be divided into two camps. One camp holds the position that while saddle fit is important it is not critical - what I will call those who make a living using horses i.e.. "cowboy". The other camp holds the position where saddle fit seems to be highly critical - what I will call the "recreational rider". These are general classifications and there are always exceptions to the rule. I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to meet and know people who have forgotten more about horses and saddles than I will ever know. My family has been involved with horses for over 100 years starting with my grandfather who cowboy’d in the Oklahoma’s Cherokee strip in the late 1800's -- to the 1950's and 60's when the family had a cow/calf operation with about 1200 pair -- to me who started making saddles full time in the late 1970's, showed both Arabs and QH in the 1980's, have spent years trail riding, and had the privilege of spending time on working ranches of friends . With that bit of info may I submit for your consideration my following observations. I believe the whole controversy stems from how one uses a horse or horses. How a horse is used tends to dictate in which camp one belongs. There is a theory in design that - form follows function - in other words how something is used (function) will determine the form. The "cowboy camp" philosophy is based on historical and "traditional" methods. As stated before, this camp does not consider saddle fit to be critical or a deal breaker because how a cowboy uses horses . One can look the U.S. cavalry as an example. The McClellan saddle used by the cavalry was basically standard with very limited variations as to bar shape, angles etc. (so a standard for trees and saddles can be done - the U.S. Cavalry did it over150 years ago) and it was used on thousands and thousands of horses for decades. This is accomplished in two ways. First, the cavalry had strict criteria as to conformation, height, and weight of their mounts to achieve uniformity. Second, how they used their horses. It has been my understanding that the order of march for the cavalry at the walk was 45 min on and 15 min off. If a saddle did have a problem with fit this lessened the problem. The 15 min off the horse took off the pressure and gave some relief to the horse. Observe women in high heels, they will slip their feet out of them from time to time to relieve the pressure but will wear them all day. Same concept. As for cowboys, again it is similar to the cavalry. Here I am going on my experience and it may not be similar to others and you may differ. Historically the cowboy did not provide his own horse. The horses were provided by the outfit he worked for. With the ranch providing the horses they tended to either breed their own (that was the case on our ranch) or select horses that were similar in breeding and conformation. Again uniformity. Plus, most but not all cowboys understand how a saddle should fit and have the experience and savvy to properly use pads to compensate for that problem horse or saddle. Also, the way cowboys use their horses makes a difference. It has been my experience (yours may differ) and the policy of my father that one rode one horse in the morning and another in the afternoon and this is supported by the historical accounts of the great cattle drives of the late 1800's. If you did have to ride the same horse all day, he would get at least a couple of days off. I do not know if this still holds in general but, I have a good friend who breeds bucking horses with a herd of around 400 and many times I have trailered out fresh horses when they were moving them from pasture to pasture. Go back to the high heels. The "Saddle Fit" article in "The Western Horseman" I believe supports this camp, BUT. After WWII the "recreational rider" camp has grown to where it today dominates the horse industry nationally. I consider the "recreational rider"camp to be made up of horse clubs, arena ropers, show riders, trail riders, what is called the back yard horse owner, etc. I have found that the "typical" "recreational rider" household will have two to three horses and the lady of the house is the prime influence. I have seen studies that indicate that women comprise and control 60 to 70+ percent of the horse market. This camps’ philosophy is completely different from the "cowboy"camp and is based on sport and pleasure and not work. It is this camp I believe has generated the interest both the good and the bad in the saddle fit question for the following reasons: Number one, whether we like it or not the horse has become a pet and part of the family. So, different rules apply. If we take the advise from "The Western Horseman" article that if a "standard"saddle will not fit sell the horse, in this market it is a non starter and even a major educational session will not change the situation. It is my horse and I will not get rid of it and so I want a saddle to fit it! It has been my experience that generally this person will spend the money to make it happen. Number two, the diversity of the horse population has increased with cross breeding, selective breeding and the introduction of breeds not generally used in the western discipline. This was highlighted and an other article in "The October 2009 Western Horseman" "Enough Already -- How will breed registries restore the balance to an overpopulated horse market?" The combinations out there are unending. This diversity has caused the production companies to come up with all types of new ideas like flexible trees, gel pads, etc. to meet this new demand. It is also why tree makers need to constantly update their patterns and if they don’t we have trouble at times using a tree makers average quarter horse or semi-quarter horse tree requiring a custom fitted tree. Several years ago another saddle maker and I were ask by a tree maker to help them update their Arabian bar pattern. I was surprised by the amount of change we saw in15 years. In the past the idea of using a draft horse as saddlehorse was unique, but now one of the major production companies has a line of saddles for draft horses. Number three, a large portion of this camp comes from (a for the lack of better words) a non-horse background. Their knowledge about horses is derived from other sources. The clinicians, starting with Ray Hunt have had a tremendous impact on this market, I will leave it to you own opinions as to their worth. This has sparked magazine articles, books, videos and such, least of all the internet. Also, this is the technoloy age and that brings in a certain mind set. "There has to be a system" In this age we are predisposed to think that to solve a problem we must have a system. The high tech solution to a low tech problem. Thus the card system, computerized pressure systems etc. At times I get the impression that some saddle makers rely on these systems to replace their lack of expertise. With all this information, the customer is asking a lot more questions. 30 years ago, when a customer came in about all they were concerned about was the color and the tooling pattern. Now is type of ground seat, stirrup leather position, grade of leather.... At times I wonder if all this info is positive. There is one other camp. This camp is in between the other two camps. For example: a roper with a string of roping horses or a show person with a show string. This camp will move in and out of the other camps. A show person may use one saddle on their show string, but their "champion" will have a custom fitted saddle. So, my observation is that when it comes to saddle fit by-in-large when the dust settles no one is right and no one is wrong. It all depends on what camp you are in. As saddle makers and to some extent tree makers we need to decide which camp we want to be in. If you decide to be in the "cowboy camp" then make saddles with trees satisfies that camp’s needs. For the "recreational rider camp" do the same which may include micro-fitting with a saddle fitting system with custom fitted tree and charge accordingly. A word of caution here!!!! Do not be in say the "cowboy camp" when you live in a "recreational rider camp" market. That will spell economic disaster. I would think that a "recreational rider camp" type saddle maker would have a tough go in Elko and a "cowboy camp" saddle maker would face the same in Scottsdale, AZ. While my heart wants to be in the "cowboy camp" the realities of the market put me in the other camp, where somehow I have kept my head above water for 30+ years. This subject is extremely complicated with all types of related and interconnected variables and where with a change in one variable can cause a cascade effect on all the other variables. So, as I see it, this discussion needs to be ongoing. The more input we have on the subject the better off we will be. We need a lot more wet saddle blankets. Respectfully submitted and look forward to your comments., Bob Brenner

Mike, Geroge Rios is one of the three Rios brothers from Phoenix, AZ. They have been around since the 1940's. Their saddles are top of the line production saddles. As to price used I could not say, but a new saddle from Rios brothers will start at $5,000.00 plus. Bob

An excellent source for silver conchos and trim is Hansen Westen Gear. Good people. www.HansenSilver.com Bob

A great topic and one that should be ongoing with everyone in the industry, whether one is a custom saddle maker, a production saddle company, supplier, etc. This is a subject I have been involved with both informally and formally over the years and have the battle scars to prove it. Whenever "standards" are even hinted about, it brings out strong emotions and opinions. Many many years ago when I was wet behind the ears an old cowboy told me that "a horse is worth so much a pound and all the rest is emotion". So when we let our emotions get in the way it is hard to have a good conservation or make a good decision and I have been as guilty an anyone, but I am learning. In the words of the cartoon character "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us". Everyones’ points so far are well taken and all have valid considerations. So, why are we having this discussion and what is driving it? Several years ago, when my good friend Verlane was still teaching in Spokane, we were having one our weekly "intellectual conversations" on how to solve the world’s problems, and our (for what is worth) opinion, was good or bad the market is driving it. For example, saddle fit. This subject has become front and center only recently, say the last 10 years or so, and giving us all fits in some fashion. About a year ago I was talking the publisher of "The Western Horsemen" about saddle fit and in my opinion a lot of the information was incorrect or misleading. To my surprise, the Oct 2009 issue had a major article on the subject. (A must read for all saddle makers.) The subject of saddle fit is not being driven from within the industry, but from the outside by the consumer or market. The point is that although, I basically agree with "The Western Horsemen" article, the market or consumer is saying something different. The questions coming up as to standards in relation to rig position, bar angle, etc. is market driven. Folks, I am in the saddle making business to make a living, so I have to listen to the market and if I don’t I will not be in business long. Many years ago the U.S. auto industry did not listen the market, and see where they are now. Have you ever heard the chairman of the board of a major U.S. auto company have a press conference and say we screwed up, like the chairman of the board of Toyota did last week? Over the years I have changed some of my ideas on saddle making that some may not agree with, but I was and am responding to the market. Maybe bar angles are to much at this time for some type of standards. As mentioned earlier, as saddle makers let’s all talk from the same page. As an example, in my book "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle Maker or Leather Worker" in the "You are Worth it" chapter I have this text. "At a Colorado Saddle Makers Association meeting we were having a discussion and one the members said; "Go and look at the custom saddles at (a well known retail saddle shop) and see what they do". To which I replied, "They are not custom saddles they are handmade production saddles". Let me tell you the discussion quickly got heated. This illustrates that as an industry, we have no standards. By standards I am not talking about standards on how to build a saddle (to be truthful something to consider - minimum standards), but standards in terminology. What is a "custom saddle"? The definition of "custom" in Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary is "made or performed according to personal order". My question is this: If by definition a custom saddle is made to personal order how can a "custom" saddle be for sale to the general public at a retail saddle shop? Every one in the industry uses the word "custom" without regard to the definition. How can a saddle be custom when in a saddle catalog there is a picture, number, and price? Should we have a standard definition, perhaps something like the following? A custom saddle is a saddle that is made to the customer's specifications to include tooling/carving and other forms of decoration done completely by hand using no machinery with the possible exception of a sewing machine/stitcher. NOTE: It is generally the trade practice for an individual saddle maker to make the saddle from start to finish, but occasionally a collaborative effort between one or more saddle makers and or leather artisan (leather carver) is also an acceptable trade practice. If we as an industry cannot define what a custom saddle is, how can our customers understand what a custom saddle is and value that saddle accordingly? And we wonder why we can’t get what we are worth?" Maybe we need to take some baby steps first. Let’s keep this discussion going. The more input the better off we will be. 　 My opinion and $5.50 will buy you a Starbucks. Bob

Cord, When re-fleecing skirts, a lot of people miss one important step. The skirts must be pressed and re-blocked. The sheepskin has a tendency to shrink over time, causing the skirt edge and corners to cup inward. If the skits are not pressed flat when you stitch on the new sheepskin by machine the old needle holes are not on the same vertical plane as the machine needle. This can cause problems: the needle will follow the old hole which can result in missed stitches or worse a broken needle or the needle will follow the vertical plane and bust out on the edge of the skirt plug leaving a mess. Note: if machine stitching watch your thread tension so the new thread does not pull through the skirt. When hand stitching it gives you a odd angle. I have found as a matter of course that I replace the skirt plug also. It makes the job easier. If the skirts are not re-blocked the saddle will not fit a horse properly. As a side note; when pressing the skirts protect the finish side of the skirt with plastic wrap, wax paper. or something similar. If this is not done the skirt can stick leaving a mark. The average cost of a re-line should be around $350.00. Bob

Denise, You have run up on the age old question. Custom saddles and productions saddles are like apples and oranges. Unfortunatly, to the general public a saddle is a saddle, thus a $1000.00 saddle with a custom fit. For pricing go to the American Saddle Makers Association website for a guide line -- www.saddlemakers.org and look in the Standards and Practices section for an explination of a custom saddle base price. Don't let it get you down. For the past 20 or so years I have been making a trail riding saddle where my cost is around 530.00 and retails for $1,695.00 using Hermann Oak leather. Bob