BOB BRENNER

May I suggest Skidmore's Leather Cream. I have used this for many years on show saddles. When applied it is hard to see the difference between the natural leather and conditioned leather. Skidmore's 1-800-785 2466 www.skidmores.com Bob

If I understand your question correctly from the picture, you are concerned about the stirrup leather and fender being flat against each other when assembled. There is a step or sequence that is required that I have never seen addressed in the various books or videos I have looked at. Once the stirrup leather is attached to the neck or tail of the fender, you must turn back both the neck of the fender and stirrup leather making sure that the neck of the fender and the stirrup leather are tight against each other as it would be to accept the stirrup before attaching the stirrup leather to the top of the fender. If you attach the fender and stirrup leather flat and without this bend you will get a bubble in the stirrup leather. Also, if you are going to lace the stirrup leathers, the neck of the fender needs to be 16" to 18" long and the area for lacing holes needs to be around 8" to 10". You can glue and stitch this area, but I would not glue and stitch the entire neck of the fender. Good luck, Bob

If I may make a suggestion as to the installation of rigging hardware in regards to both flat plate and in-skirt rigging. I am of the opinion that all installations no matter what type of hardware must have plugs. When plugs are not used the saddle maker is automatically building a defect into the saddle. If plugs are not used a void is created between the two pieces of leather the thickness of the hardware. One of the characteristics of leather we as saddle makers like and use is leather’s ability to stretch and mold. When plugs are not used the leather will want to stretch and mold to fill in that void over time leaving the leather on top of the hardware proud of the rest of the leather. In picture below from this topic, where the rigging has been molded you can see the leading edge where the wear will incur. The area of the saddle where the flat plate or in-skirt rigging is located is the probably the highest point of wear due to the constant motion of the stirrup leathers moving back and forth. This is why on Dee rigged roping saddles a wear leather is used to protect the skirt from this inherent problem. Over the years I have saddles in my shop for repairs by both custom makers and the production makers to repair this problem. Some are just beginning to indicate a problem and some have been to the point of failure is just around the corner. In ones that were about to fail the wear was so bad the leather was worn completely through and the hardware was exposed. The use of plugs is not the complete cure for this problem. I have seen saddles with plugs installed and the wear was so heavy the heads of the rivets were partially worn away, causing a failure. So, any time one builds a saddle no matter what type of rigging that is used this inherent problem must be addressed in the design and building of the saddle. Respectfully, Bob

What one needs to make to do leather work full time will depend upon each persons unique situation. That being said, here is some data you can use as a reference point. MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME IN THE UNITED STATES $ 51,404.00 PAYROLL TAXES ( SOCIAL SECURITY ETC) $ 7,711.00 BENEFITS (HEALTH INSURANCE, ETC) $ 6,168.00 RETIREMENT ACCOUNT $ 5 ,140.00 TOTAL INCOME NEEDED $ 70,423.00 This equates to $35.00 per hour for labor alone. This does not include overhead. A national average for labor and overhead would be around $47.00 per hour The health insurance figure/percentage is probably low given what is happening currently. Not enough data available at this time. My guess is that one should plan on from 15% to 20% in the future.

Keith, As always a cut above. I know what you mean -- sweating and I will add a lot of patience!! Not a project you start in the afternoon. I use a similar process on my trick saddles. Bob

Somehow I missed this. I think there are several reasons why skirts a getting a little shorter. I have been shortening the skirts on most of my saddles for the last 20 years or so and this is my reasoning. I generally only shorten the length of the skirt and not the depth, but will depend on the horse and rider. Back in the 90’s I started seeing a change in the conformation of horses I was building saddles for. These horses had a heavier and more developed shoulder. Therefore. I began to shorten both the tip of the bar and the distance between the front of the bar and the leading edge of the skirt. My normal bar and skirts measurements were restricting the movement of the shoulder and could develop a pressure point. In fact after a few years my tree maker informed me that they were shortening the front tip of most of their bars, as they had also seen this change in conformation In the last few years I have noticed another change in conformation. I am seeing a more compact or shorter coupled horse. Again, I am shortening both the back tip of the bar and/or skirt whatever the case may be. My standard skirt length was interfering with the movement of the hip. Plus, from time to time was seeing a pressure point on top of the spine due to the conformation. Also, have been making more saddle with round skirts. I have been making a trail riding saddle for about 25 years. In the beginning most of the skirts were square and now most of the skirts a round. In fact do not make any 16" seats with a square skirt. The saddles with round skirts seem to fit more horses now days. This is what I am seeing in my market, yours could be different. Bob

I get a similar warning on McAfee every time I come to this site. So you must have a bit of faith, but always be on your toes.

The type of business organization will depend on your unique set of circumstances. I would suggest that you consult with an accountant and an attorney. Given your situation they will determine the proper business organization. A little money spent here will be well spent. Bob

I think a lot of saddle makers have problems in these areas. I generally have 2 to 3 spec saddles in the shop at any given time. I use these saddles as display saddles so customers can see the actual end product when they are looking to order a custom saddle. Also, these display saddles are available for the customer that wants to walk out the door with a new saddle. The display saddles are priced at my standard retail price and is not negotiable. If a saddle has not moved or is showing some shop wear, I will discount the price to get it off the shop floor and replace it with another. This insures my inventory is always fresh. As far as the discount, I consider that a cost of doing business as advertising. As for the question: Will you take less money for it? This has been a problem for our industry for ages. The saddle industry like the automobile industry has had the concept of dickering on the price. The car dealers solve this problem by adding the dicker to the sticker price. The retail saddle shops generally do the same, so if the custom maker is going to follow this sales method you must add the dicker to your retail price. In other words if your cost (materials, labor, overhead and profit) to make a spec saddle is $4,000.00 and you are going to dicker in the price then the list price needs to be more that your actual cost. Let's say you will give a 15% discount. The list price needs to be around $4,800.00. Now the $64.000 question: test ride for saddle fit? No good answer here. Each saddle maker needs to develop their own policy based on their market. Letting the customer take the saddle home to try it out is like walking through a mine field; all types of things can happen that can cause you to lose money. If the saddle does not fit according to the customer and the saddle is returned there can be visible signs of use and a future customer will consider the saddle as used and want a major discount of the price. How about the situation where the customer is caught in a rain storm during the test ride and the saddle comes back water stained? Now what do you do? My policy is no test rides. I have a method of checking for saddle fit in all cases and have only had 2 saddles returned in 35 years. That's my short answer and another opinion. Each question could be a book. Bob

Kenways was in business form 1949 to the early 1970's in Calgary. More info is available in Dan Hutchins' book "Old Cowboy Saddles & Tack".

That’s a tough question. The level of difficulty of the Lynn McKenzie rigging is higher that an in-skirt rigging and is compounded by the fact that you do not have the needed hardware and must improvise. If it were me, I would opt for a 3-way in-skirt rigging (as in the attached picture) if you are looking for more cinching options or a standard "C" rigging. I talked this over with my apprentice, who just finished her first saddle - a barrel racer. She would also go with in-skirt rigging. It’s your call. Bob P.S. Here is a picture of her saddle

From time to time one can add leather shims to the bottom of the bars. I have done this on saddles that have already been built to solve a problem. I am not a fan of doing this on a bare tree. I think the tree should fit prior to building the saddle. If one were to add shims to the bare tree, you are building in a manufacturing defect. The tree pictured does not fit the horse at all. The gullet looks a little to wide causing the tree to run downhill and along with too much rock that is causing the back of the bars to tip up. Also, I think the angle may be too flat as indicated by the open area at the bottom of the front bar pad. I feel that there is way to much void to be filled in that you will cause more problems than you solve. I know you do not want to hear this but I would not build a saddle with this tree on this horse. Sorry, Bob

The rigging in the saddle was developed by Lynn McKenzie and Double J Saddlery and is what I would call a modified ring rigging. I do not think any plate rigging will work as the angles are not right. The closest thing that may work could be "Y" dee from Bork # 251 or # 633. The problem we have is that the rigging will not function the same way as the Lynn McKenzie and Double J Saddlery rigging. The question is how close does it have to be?

As I understand it, the barrel racers want to be as close to the horse as possible, thus the popularity of the treeless saddle. The two saddles I made with this method were for students of a Pro. She did not like the treeless saddle and saw this method and liked it. My customers are happy with the saddles ( until the next "new" thing comes along). Bob

That hardware is used by Double J Saddlery and is probably proprietary so is not available to anyone else. Bob

Have been working with this concept for a while and have found that a good quality 1/4' to 3/8" thick closed cell neoprene has worked for me. I think the concept is interesting and can see some possibilities, but wonder how the foam and leather will hold up over time. Also, have found that you need to increase the gullet width to allow for the foam. For 1/4" have added 1/4" to 1/2" depending upon the situation and 1/2" to 3/4" for 3/8'. I think the foam needs to be cut 1/4" to 3/8" shorter than the shirts for a better fit and skived back around 1" and glued well. Respectfully, Bob

Aurelie, The questions you are asking will generate a lot of answers and is a sensitive area. For better or worse here goes — To start out – form follows function. In the case of saddles the saddle is designed to meet the function fo the saddle. A roping saddle is designed for roping, a cutting saddle for cutting, a barrel saddle for barrel racing and so on. Therefore, the material used will be different to meet the specific needs. I began using acrylic fleece and Ralide trees in a line of saddles I make in the late 1980's, where weight and cost is a consideration. Have made over 350 to date with no problems. When the local Police Department started their mounted unit they had me make their saddles. I used acrylic fleece and Ralide trees. The police used these saddles for almost ten years. The only problem they had was a broken horn when a horse went over backwards. If a rawhide covered tree had been used the result would have been the same. When the unit was eliminated because of budget cuts, they brought the saddles to my shop for me to appraise them. Since the police department keeps accurate records, they had a logbook for each saddle giving the total hours they had been used. The total hours used ranged from a little over 10,000 hours to just under 17,000 hours. With that usage these saddles probably had as much or more use in ten years than most saddles see in a lifetime. With eight saddles, there was no indication of any of the problems everyone has given me as reasons to not use a Ralide® tree or acrylic fleece. As for the wool fleece from Weaver, the last time I looked at it ( about 10 years ago ) I found the fiber density to be below my standards. The acrylic fleece is also below my standards but acceptable for general use. I have talked to them about upgrading but it is a cost factor which I understand. The acrylic fleece I use costs $26.00+ per yard with a minimum order of 50 yards which puts out of reach of most. As for using a Ralide tree in a barrel saddle, I think you are OK for an entry level racer. I have made several with Ralide trees although not my first choice. The new fiberglass or Kevlar covered trees are extremely popular with the pros. I use the Kevlar covered tree. As for weight, try a in-skirt rigged mother hubbard skirts, a smaller fender 7" to 8" wide, half stirrup leathers 2 ½ wide, and a tree with a built-in ground sea as is the case with a Ralide tree. When the rubber meets the road it is your choice, but remember there is no one answer that meets all situations. Hope this helps and good luck. Bob

Barry King makes a border blade for a swivel knife that works great. Check his web site http://www.barrykingtools.com/swivelknives.htm That is all I use now. Bob

I talked to them on Tues and today. They were closed most of last week for Thanksgiving. This is the number I use: 1-877-916-8733 Bob

Random, The backstitch is not all the hard if you follow the pattern. (See the attachments) Start form the back or webbing side at the first hole in the billet -- then go back to the end of the billet and go thru the webbing only -- then go thru the second hole from the webbing side -- then go back thru the first hole -- then go thru the third hole from the webbing side -- then go back thru the second hole repeat the pattern of one back and two forward until finished. When you finish the first line of stitching go across to the second stitch line and start form the second hole from the bottom and repeat the pattern. When you finish the first billet cross over the the other billet and start again. I generally use a pricking iron with 5 stitches per inch and 1.0 mm braided and waxed nylon thread.

Iwilta The saddle you saw in LCSJ, is Keith Siedel's saddle. He won best of show with the saddle at the Boot and Saddle Makers Round-up last fall. Does not get much better. Bob

I agree with Keith. The large saddle companies have developed trees with bars that fit a wide range of horses. Your Martin saddle fits three out of four horses which is about what one would expect for a production saddle. As Keith indicated, your fourth horse could have a conformation that is out of the normal range. My question is - has the cause of the white hair been determined to be a narrow gullet width or wrong bar angle as you are indicating? If not, then you will be just spinning your wheels trying out saddles, as there other situations that can cause white hairs in that location. One could be that actually you may need bars with a steeper angle and not a flatter angle. For some additional info try Western Saddle Fit at www.saddlemakers.org If I may make a suggestion; concentrate your efforts in locating a saddle maker you can work with face to face. Trying to diagnose a saddle fit problem and arrive at a solution long distance is fraught additional problems. As far as trees, go with the tree the saddle maker uses or suggests. Bowden trees are in thousands of saddles. I have seen the same problem in a custom hand made tree. If the saddle maker is doing his or her job those trees would not be used in a saddle. Good luck. PS: Where did you hear about Double C Trees? Have not heard of them. Submitted for you consideration. Bob

Aurelie, Have build a few barrel saddles, so here is a very short course. Currently the most popular style of a barrel saddle is one with round Mother Hubbard style skirts with in-skirt rigging. Typically, the horn will be thin and around 3" to 3 ½ " high with a cap less than 1 ½". The swell will have little froward tilt, about 3" thick and 12 to13 inches wide. The cantle will be 4 plus inches high. To reduce bulk the fenders will be down sized and 2 ½" half stirrup leathers are used. Weight is a consideration so lighter weight skirting leather is used. The treeless saddle has become popular of late along with smaller skirts on regular saddles. You had a question as to fitting the Mother Hubbard style skirts. Mother Hubbard skirts have a bottom skirt and a top skirt. See the example of the skirt pattern I have used for several years. 　 All skirts need to be blocked no matter what type of saddle being built. One can get a bump or ridge plus some other problems when a rear jockey is used and the skirts are not blocked properly. A tree with thick or beefy bars will make the blocking process harder. A saddle with a rear jockey is a little forgiving because the flow line is broken up by the edge of the rear jockey. 　 The bottom skirt must be blocked or molded to the point where the skirt is on the same plain as the top of the bar. Any unevenness will be transmitted to the top skirt as a bump or ridge. Once the bottom skirts are blocked or molded to the point where the bottom skirt is on the same plane as the top of the bar, the top skirt will flow onto the bottom skirt with not bump or ridge other than the curve of the bar. 　 As far as I know there are no books or videos on barrel saddles. The construction techniques for a barrel saddle are the same as any other saddle just a different style as stated before. Study the internet for examples. Hope this helps you, Bob

Jerry, I find your observations and ideas refreshing. I feel your pain. Over the past few years the customers you describe have become over 50% of my business. The world of saddle making is changing. Dusty was correct as to getting a new horse, but that was based on a business model in the saddle market 20 to 30 years ago. That business model still works. The problem is that in today's market that portion of the saddle is static or decreasing, while this new segment of the market is growing. The reasons for this is another subject. We as saddle makers need to re-evaluate our concepts to reflect this new market. I agree with you as to trees. I have been using a Ralide tree for around 20 years in one of my saddles and in the past I have found that it would fit around 90% of the horses in my market. That percentage has dropped over the past few years. In my market, I am seeing a different quarter horse body type. A shorter back and a heavier wither. Back in the 90's, I started shortening the front tip of my bars. Lately I have begun to shorten the back tip of the bars. Last year I went to one of the production tree makers that supplies trees to some of the major production saddle companies to make trees for me for a new saddle I am developing. I asked for their "semi-quarter" bars. When I got the tree in went out to my "foundation" quarter horse and checked the fit. The fit was negative. OK, only one horse, so that weekend went out and checked the tree on 27 other horses. The result was only 3 horses had an acceptable fit. I had about a 90% failure rate. If I had a 90% failure in fit, then one could say those production saddle companies using the same tree would have the same result. Thus, a possible factor in the emergence of this new market. So, yes I have seen changes. As a footnote, I redesigned the bars, am using the tree with no problems. Added a little more twist and flare in the bars. For your consideration, Bob

Kevin is correct. The proper construction of English stirrups is for the flesh or rough-out side to be on the outside. Also, English stirrup leathers require a specific tannage called stirrup butt. A stirrup butt will cost around $300.00. Any other type of leather should not be used for your safety. Respectfully, Bob