BOB BRENNER

Denise, The rig hobble does help in a dee rigged saddle along with the design of the rigging leather etc. As I stated before, if the rigging is designed and installed properly there should be no restriction. How the saddle maker accomplishes this task will depend upon his or her training. I have seen several different ways of installing a dee rigging that achieves the same outcome. I get in saddles all the time with poorly installed riggings both production and custom. That all given, I have run across situations where the stirrup leather buckle was so high it interfered with the dee or latigo (tie strap) causing restriction. Other than that I am at a loss as to your question. I am going to make a guess here. Are you referring to what some call a free swinging stirrup leather? The standard or conventional saddle and tree design has a built in restriction as to the forward movement of the stirrup leather. The stirrup slot on the tree determines the amount of free forward movement the stirrup leather has. See the blue line in the attached example. When the rider moves their feet forward, the free unrestricted movement stops when the stirrup leather hits the shoulder of the stirrup leather slot, either on the top or bottom of the bar. When one attempts to move past this point, (See the red line in the example.), the stirrup leather is held in place by the slot and the stirrup leather will bind at a point below the bars of the tree. There are various force vectors that come into play here that create the resistance or restriction. This has been a "problem" forever. Over the years there have been several other designs proposed and used to "solve" the "problem". In fact there have been some US patents issued for these designs. The most well known was Slim Fallis. John Fallis, his son, still uses his method. So its your fault. Does this answer your question? Bob

Denise, The ways and wherefores of rigging types and positions can take several days. Generally the type of saddle and its use should determine the type of rigging. Chuck's article does a great job of explaining the basics. To answer your question, look at the position of the the dee rig and the center fire rig. The center fire ring is positioned under the stirrup leather and fender. As the stirrup leather and fender move forward they freely ride along the rigging strap with the only restriction being the stirrup leather slot and/or the swell. The dee rig is positioned in front of the stirrrup leather and fender. As the stirrup leather and fender move forward they may run into the rigging dee or rigging leather and thus restricting forward movement. This should not be a problem is the saddle maker does his or her job right. A short answer. Hope this helps, if not let me know and I will be more detailed. Bob

Here are the mesurements and a pattern that I use. I very seldom use the flat straight style, but do use one that is rounded. Also, I make the width of the ear piece is the same as the head strap. From time to time I will make it smaller or larger depending upon the design of the headstall along with the head strap loops. Hope this helps. Bob

Try Weaver Leather or WINDMILL ENGLISH SADDLE SUPPLY 7186 DEWEY ROAD THOMPSON, OH 44086 1-440-298-3018 Bob

The Fallis Balanced Ride saddle tree is a specalized tree. Unless the tree maker has the specifications and has made the tree, I would not recommend having the tree duplicated. If Precision can repair the tree, that would be a better option. Replacing the tree in a saddle is a major project, and many things can go wrong in the process even for the experienced saddle maker. If John is willing to do the job for $800.00 you will be ahead of the game and have a better result. Respectfully, Bob

I agree with Troy and Keith. Generally the leathers are cut at the top of the hide (backbone) where the leather is the heaviest and more uniform. Also, if the leathers are cut side by side they will be uniform.

Back to the original subject. What would I do given an inexpensive saddle described as in below average condition missing a fender and stirrup leather presented for repair? In this situation I would agree with the customer and decline the repair. Rational: (This is how I approach all repairs.) First, once the repair is competed, can the item be used safely as it is intended? If not then we stop here. Repair will be declined. Second, is the repair cost effective? Here, I use the 50% rule. If the cost of the repair is 50% or more of the replacement value or current market value of the item, the repair should be declined as not cost effective. The final decision is with the customer and they may decide to continue with the repair for their own reasons. In my shop the repair (new fender and new stirrup leathers) cost would be $278.00 and a national average would be around $243.00 . In this case could the customer sell the saddle for $500.00? From the description of the saddle I think it would be unlikely. Given the description of the saddle the cost of the repairs are very likely to be more than the value of the saddle. To some, these prices will be high. These prices are based on realistic and sound accounting practices. From time to time a customer will ask me to use cheaper materials or "can’t you just throw a couple of stitches in it?" My policy is to only use quality materials and workmanship in all repairs no matter the quality of the item. It is my reputation. Also, I do not know how to throw a stitch. Also, I check each item for overall safety and inform the customer of any problems they may not be aware of. If the customer says not to worry, I note the problem on the invoice. CYA. Just because a repair can be done does not mean it should be done. As for "But,,,, if this person sells their services as a professional, and uses a saddle in as poor as condition as this one to teach children to ride with, what else is this person doing that would endanger children while learning to ride?" After 35+ years in this business where does one start? I think Keith and others have hit all the highlights. Bob

Sharon Saare is know for her endurance saddles. I do not know what the current situation is but in the past she contracted with individual saddle makers to make her saddles. As for fit, she has several tree designs she uses. I could be wrong but I think she uses Bowden trees. In the past she fitted the horse and rider. The saddles I have seen and worked on were of good quality. Hope this helps. Bob

I agree. If it can not be done right, don't do it. Everytime you take a shortcut it will cost you. Fred, This is what is on my invoices and on the web site. Pikes Peak Saddlery selects materials and constructs our products and repairs to provide optimum quality and durability. Horses are strong and powerful animals that can cause the failure of even the highest quality products and repairs. Your common sense and commitment to equine safety are vital for the safety of both you and your horse. Feel free to one and all. Bob

Angie, Try Jeremiah Watt. http://www.ranch2arena.com/earslides.html They do add to a bridle. Bob

Buckaroogal, The only straps that I know of used by trick riders off the back of the saddle are what are know as a tail drag strap. Do not use any type of saddle strings -- period!!!!! Safety first. This should only be done by a highly qualified saddle maker to an existing trick saddle. A word of caution – trick riding straps should not be used on a standard western saddle for any trick riding. The use of a saddle that is not designed for trick riding is completely unsafe and the saddle maker who makes the modification could be held legally liable. A word the wise. That being said here's how. Tail drag straps should be 1" wide doubled and stitched. The strap is one piece. A 1" slot is punched or cut into the rear jockey just below where the rear concho would generally be positioned and the strap passed under the rear jockey to the other side and attached with a ss screw just above the slot. The rear concho can be used. The ends are attached to 1" stainless steel dees attached with a screw at the point of the cantle. A conway buckle is used for adjustment. See the attachment Bob

Don’t know if it is the best, but this how I do it. I use a plug from a firm piece of leather the same thickness as the rigging dee and use the rigging dee as a pattern. If the rigging dee is not completely sandwiched between the inside and top plugs, the rigging dee could move and over time causing the leather and rigging to fail. Both plugs are cut oversize by around ½" at the bottom of the skirt. The top plug is skived to a feather edge, starting about ½ " from the rigging dee. Before the in-skirt rigging can the installed the skirts have to be blocked, the center line of the rigging dee determined and marked, and trimmed to final size. The skirt plugs need to be prepared. I leave the skirt plugs ½" longer at the edge and mark the edge of the skirts and the centerline of the rigging dee. The inside plug is glued and installed first on the skirt plug, then the rigging dee is installed, and then top plug is glued and installed insuring there is no movement of the rigging dee. Next the skirt is installed and the rivets are installed and the skirt plugs and rigging plugs are trimmed. I do not use any stitching other than the lining on the plugs, as I feel the stitching would weaken the rigging. see the attachment for an example. Bob, Howard Council ( probably the top roping saddle maker) uses in-skirt rigging’s and I believe Trevor Brazile used one of his saddles at the NFR last month. Hope this helps. 　 Bob

Walter, Your saddle is a Martha Josey "all-round" ladies saddle. It is one of the last saddles made for women. Made under the Longhorn stamp in Greenville. Was in the Longhorn inventory from the late 1970's until Longhorn closed in the late 1980's. This saddle was very popular. Longhorn made the Martha Josey named saddle and the same saddle un-named. When I had a retail store as a Longhorn dealer I had 2 each in stock and was my best seller. At wholesale the named saddle cost about $75.00 more. An expensive horn cap. Bob

A loop seat is not all that hard. Take your time and try to do a practice one on just one side. Here are some notes I did over 20 years ago, so they are a little crude. Hope these pictures make it, don't really understand how to post pictures. If they don't make it send me an email. I know how to do that. Bob

Shelly, You've been busy. Great work as always. Bob

Goldpony, A bit of a mess here now. Why is the saddlemaker refusing to fix the very evident problem with the seat jockey? You stated there is a 6 month warrenty. Is that warrenty in your contract or verbal? Looks like the saddlemaker is on the hook for everything. Measured the horse for a custom tree and determined the rigging position. I see you are in Canada. Is the saddlemaker in Canada? Do not know where you are on this, but would suggest it is time to start crossing you T's and doting your I's. Would start by informing the saddlemaker of your concerns in writing for starters. Good luck. Bob

Andy, Very nice. Bob

To get back to GrampaJoel’s original post - Saddle fit is a moving target. Things change. The goal of a saddle maker is to design and build a saddle that will achieve a good fit over time, not at a point in time. One will not have a "100% " fit every time one saddles up. Horses are individuals just like you and I. One horse will hardly any change at all, while another could need a new saddle in a couple of years for various reasons. It is the nature of the beast and we have no control in the matter. If saddle fit is a deal breaker, then would suggest that an experienced saddle maker will fit the bill. In arriving at a good saddle fit one has (as I see it) basically three main variables [ horse - saddle - rider ] and two secondary variables [ pad - use ]. Each of these variables have their own sub-set of variables. Therefore, the combinations are large and complex. In our tech savvy world, I think people want a "system" that will simplify the process of saddle fitting and deliver the silver bullet result (quick and easy). It is my opinion that saddle fitting is more an ART than a science. One develops this art over years of experience and a lot of gray hairs. While the basic concepts of saddle fit can be taught, only working with the variables on a day to day basis will lead one to an understanding of the art. As we all know there individuals, the "experts", out there who tout their "saddle fitting system". To be fair here one could use one or more of these systems as a tool ( with the understanding their strengths and weaknesses ) in arriving at the final conclusion. A "good" saddle fit requires one to use the variables at hand and then to allow for possible changes in the variables to arrive at a combination that give the best saddle fit over time. Folks, that’s the art, that only experience can achieve. Each maker generally has developed the art in a way that best works for them. If the end result is positive, how one arrives at the result is not all that important. When it is all said and done "saddle fit" is a guess although in many cases an educated guess, it is still just a guess. If one understands this, then they can act accordingly and hopefully the riding experience will be more joyful. The "saddle fit" problem in my opinion is generated from the retail saddle purchase. I am not going to beat up the production saddle companies or the retail stores. The majority of the production saddle companies produce a product that serves their market well and most retail stores do their best to serve their customers. The problem as I see it is lack of information. First of all, typically one of the major variables is missing – the horse. Next, the basic information on the saddle is not generally available to the retail store or consumer; gullet width, bar angle, etc. Plus, the ability of the rider generally can not be observed. So, we have a situation where a decision regarding "saddle fit" may be determined with only around 50% or less of the information needed to make that educated guess. I would think that given this, the "saddle fit" failure rate will be high. The rider has spent good money for a saddle they can’t use. Once burned the rider has questions and looking for information, thus the interest in "saddle fit" giving rise to the "experts" who as we know have a lot of "information". The individual saddle maker can get dragged into the middle by the rider wanting the saddle maker to be a miracle worker and make things right. When the rubber meets the road it is the individual rider/horse owner who ultimately responsible for "saddle fit". The rider must educate themselves as best as possible. It is the responsibility of our industry as a whole to provide the rider with the proper information so they can make an informed decision. To date, we as an industry in general have not fulfilled that responsibility, therefore the rider is at a disadvantage as the information they need is almost nonexistent and the validity of the information available maybe suspect for numerous reasons. Given this lack of valid information from the industry, the rider is prone to seek the "experts" for guidance. The other day did a search on the internet for saddle fit. Then looked at each result for ten pages. Was an interesting exercise. Only found 3 entries from saddle makers that had written an article or were quoted in an article, who were not trying to sell or promote their own deal. References to the NMSU study popped up 11 times. As with all internet searches there were numerous duplicates and information from one site is repeated on other sites. Found one site that did a good job explaining saddle fit except of their explanation on how one determines quarter horse, full quarter horse, semi-quarter horse bars was completely wrong, and this information was repeated on 7 other sites. Given what I saw, I have a lot of sympathy for the rider, and understand their frustration. Until good valid information is available, the saddle fit question will be with us for a while. This forum is a positive step in that direction. Just some thoughts and observations for your consideration. Bob

Fred Mueller was born in St Louis (into a saddle and harness making family) somtime in the 1860's. His first shop was in Denver, CO in 1891, and sold the shop to his employees in 1917. Fred died in 1924. The saddle shop closed in the 1950's, and the western wear portion of the store closed in the 1980's. Mueller advocated the one stop shop concept in marking. The cowboy could buy his saddle, hat, spurs, boots, jeans, etc. all in one store. This concept has been the most sucessful concept for saddlemakers. (Capriola, Kings Saddlery, Ryons, Luskeys, Porters, to name a few.) Being about 50 miles south of Denver, I have had several Mueller saddles in the shop for repairs. About 4 to 5 years ago I had one in that was similar to yours. That saddle was made in the 1920's. Mueller was known for a good working saddle. In fact when my family bought a ranch in western Colo in the 1950's, there were several Mueller saddles in the tack room. One was reported to acutally have been made by Mueller himself. That saddle is still in the family out in Calif. Hope this helps. Bob

Try 5/6 oz orthopedic elk from Goliger Leather. 1-800-423-2329. A little pricey at $5.50+ per sq ft but meets your specifications. Bob

Troy, Simply elegant. Bob

From the picture it looks like a veriation of a "Squaw" tree used by Native Americans. Here is a link with a picture http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=244591&imageID=418298&parent_id=244555&word=&snum=&s=&notword=&d=&c=&f=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&total=31&num=12&imgs=12&pNum=&pos=16 Bob

Ditto on Hansen

Ann, Looked at my suppliers, including Weaver and only found SS lace in 3/16. Years ago you could get 1/16, 1/8, and 1/4 in nickel sivler but I have only seen SS lace in 3/16. You might try one of the large production companies like Crates or Circle Y and see if they have it made by special order for a source. Bob

Weazer, Glad you and Jeremy were able to strike a deal. Will not argue with your choice of Randy at Timberline, Wickett & Craig leather , Bork hardware, etc. All good choices. I do take your comments in your latest post as a personal affront to me and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell you a saddle, but tried to give you a wide span of good advice. You gave the impression that we were trying to rip you off with our prices. I will correct you: 95+% of all saddle makers work in individual shops and make their saddles by themselves from start to finish. When their name is on the saddle he or she made it. Given the information you supplied; Jeremy’s costs for your saddle will be $1,100.00 or more. He is going to build you a saddle at or below the individual poverty rate for the U.S., that is his choice. If you expect us to work at the poverty rate so you can get what you want or need then maybe as taxpayers we should demand that you as a Federal employee work at the minium wage!!! Respectfully, Bob