Rod and Denise Nikkel

The website now has the Sheridan Workshops up so you can sign up for any of them here: http://www.leathercraftersjournal.com/SheridanWorkshops2011.html And they have the trade show booklet up here: http://www.leathercraftersjournal.com/files/SW11BookletPageOrder.pdf It is a 9.5 Mb download so if you are still on dial up you will have a long wait to get it. While what we discussed with LCSJ was always two half day seminars, looks like they have combined us into one full day seminar. The write up in the booklet is also missing a couple of key ingredients we plan to talk about in the seminars, namely the rider and the horse. Here is our version of what we will be teaching. Understanding Saddle Trees – the top side Course Description: Rod and Denise Nikkel will explain the measurements taken on a saddle tree, what those measurements do (and don’t) mean, and what you can’t measure that is still important in how a tree looks and functions. Understanding how the different parts of the tree relate to each other will help you get the look you want and the size for the rider that you need when you order a tree. Understanding Saddle Trees – the bottom side Course Description: Rod and Denise Nikkel will explain all the different factors that a tree maker can modify to change the tree fit, and when, why and how you would want them to change for different fits. You will learn what you want to evaluate on the horse and how what you see relates to how the tree fits. As we said before, if you have any comments or suggestions for what you would like to see us talk about, please feel free to PM us and let us know.

Compound, Thanks for your kind words. There is no question there is a big difference in construction between English and Western trees, and not just in side saddles. The interesting thing is that saddle built on these trees can also be made to look like English side saddles yet still have the increased bearing surface of a Western saddle. There are Aussie tree makers who make hybrid trees as well - basic Western construction but looking like Australian Stock saddles when they are finished. Dennis Lane calls his a Western Stock saddle tree. We know a tree maker who, in combination with a reputable saddle maker who build his own trees, who makes a Western style tree that constructed so an English looking saddle can be built on it. The bar surface area on them has to be less than on a normal Western saddle, but still more than a traditional English saddle. If someone can envision it, it can probably be done!

We've built a few more of these in the last year and a half and our customer has been really good to work with in refining and tweaking small details to make the trees work better for the rider. Just thought we would throw some newer pictures up here.

Five, Please post the pictures if you will. It is always interesting to us to see old saddle trees and there are not a lot of pictures of old side saddle trees available.

We agree with Andy. Any knots are a weak spot in wood, and knots the size you have pictured do compromise the strength of the tree. Those are what we cut out of the wood and burn as scrap while using the solid pieces to build our trees.

Dennis, I don't know if the Mounties use other horses in other areas, but the RCMP Musical Ride has come to Valleyview twice now and they have times set when the barn is open so people can walk through and see (not go next to) the horses and talk to the officers as they tend them and their tack. Their horses are narrow thoroughbreds and the saddles are English saddles. Beyond that I can't help you but I know the backs on those horses are VERY different than a BFB. The Canadian horses we have built trees for, on the other hand, have pretty broad and wide backs and the trees we have built for them would be similar to what you probably need.

Kronic, There is some good information in this old thread about rigging positions and how they work in reference to how the bars are shaped. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1719 It is hard to tell from pictures because the perspective of the picture distorts things, but if the rigging is placed at all forward of the "roundest part of the front bar pad" (hard to explain what I mean quickly but it is in post #14 in the referenced thread) it will rock the tree forward. There is an idea that is, unfortunately, getting to be more common and we are seeing more trees incorporating it, saying that you need to "flare" the front of the bars out more so they don't interfere with the shoulder blades. So the area of contact with the bar pad ends much further back, leaving a lot of that front bar pad not touching the horse. This sounds like a great idea - until you do up the cinch, which pulls that front end down on the horse and rocks the back up unless it is rigged really far back so that the pull is behind where the contact leaves off. I'm not sure from the pictures. So you think this tree may have been built with that concept in mind?

Kronic, please post what you find. Your situation doesn't fit "the norm". Usually when there are problem areas front and back it is due to bridging - not enough rock and only front and back contact. But then the back usually doesn't lift off when you cinch up. So those don't normally go together and make this a more interesting conundrum. The depth of the indentations in the skirts from those stirrup leathers with the little amount of wear on the rest of the saddle shows a problem as far as we are concerned. The back stirrup groove isn't deep enough to accomodate the stirrup leathers. That lump has, at minimum, changed the fit of the bars on the horses. Is that too far forward for the sore areas on your horses or might it be the cause? How far forward is this rigged relative to where the center of the front bar pad is? If the rigging pulls down too far forward it will pull the tips of the bars down onto the shoulders regardless of how well the bars match the shape of the horse, and this is worse if the tree is too wide or has lots of "flare" at the front. Again, this doesn't fit with soring farther back, but then this whole senario is unusual, making it likely you have a couple of things going on here, not just one (unless the back soreness is from the back of the stirrup leathers). Very interested in what you find out.

Kronic, The two most common reasons a saddle will pull down in front and lift off the back when you cinch up are 1.) it is too wide at the front so it tips down and 2.) it has too much rock in it so cinching makes the front pull down. Having bars with no back stirrup grooves don't help here in either case. The stirrup leathers effectively add rock to the tree and they also can make a pivot point if the saddle is too wide. You can sure see the ridge in the skirts already from the back of the stirrup leathers. That has to be a pressure point. It is unusual to have a saddle soring in the back when it is pulling down in the front so much. Now that you have the skirts off, you will learn the most by putting the tree on the horse and seeing if you can correlate where the hot spots were to the part of the tree that contacts that area. For example, the problem areas at the rear of the tree - do they correspond to those strings coming through the bars? They look kind of lumpy in the pictures. Maybe you want to do the baby powder trick - put baby powder on the horse, place the tree on the horse, then lift off and check horse and tree for where the powder transfers. You know where the contact is that way. Be interested in knowing what you find out.

We use a spar varnish on both wood and rawhide. It wouldn't hurt to put some of that through the holes once you drill them.

Fit wise, get a bit of a variety - at least two types. We know what we would recommend for our trees (some 4 x 90 and some 4 1/4 x 93), but since every tree maker does things differently, you probably want to talk more with whoever will be supplying you. Fork type - what do they want? Swell fork or slick fork? We would probably recommend not too wide a swell if they want a swell fork (13" maximum). They don't need the weight or the width. A lower horn would be a good idea too. Tall horns can get caught on clothing when people aren't used to getting on and off. Not too tall a cantle - 4" is a nice average height. Too tall is harder to get your leg over if you aren't used to mounting a horse. Moderate width to the cantle too - 12 to 12 1/2". These are just our suggestions to start with. Have fun!

Alan, wait time isn't too long at the moment. A couple months, maybe 2 1/2. Thanks for the orders. Rod likes the saddle he made for himself too. (Not as pretty as yours, but pretty good for a first saddle.) Fits him perfectly! Nothing like being able to feel how it will feel for the final rider to get it right!

Alan, It is great to see our work covered up so well. That's what we make them for! You have done a really good job on it. Now, how does it ride?

It's confirmed! We will be presenting a couple of seminars at the Rocky Mountain Leather Trade Show at Sheridan on Thursday May 19th. The topic is Saddle Trees from a Tree Maker's Perspective. We will be talking about the top side in the morning session, including measurements, what you can measure and what you can't but is still important, what some measurements actually mean and don't mean, what factors affect the way different parts of a tree end up looking and why - basically information to help you get the look you want and the fit for the rider you need. The afternoon session will be on the bottom side - factors that affect fit for the horse, why and how, what to look at on a horse to decide what to order, what you are looking for when you put a tree on a horse to check fit, troubleshooting saddle fit problems. This will be a first for us and we are quite excited about having this opportunity. We know what we are planning on saying, but if you have feedback or suggestions on what you would be interested in learning about at such a seminar, please let us know. We're interesting in hearing from you. Details on costs to follow. By the way, please note that the days for this show have changed. It has been a Friday through Sunday show. This year it is changing to Thursday through Saturday. The reception at King's is on Wednesday and the party at Sheridan Leather Outfitters is on Thursday this year.

We build trees so what you order is the measured seat length (top of hand hole to cantle) when the tree is finished. We don't account for the saddle maker's shortening it up because how much it is shortened depends on how the seat is built. The saddle maker's answers will help you figure that out. Although it is traditionally used in the saddle making industry, seat length is not the ideal way to measure room for the rider. The cantle point to fork measurement, which we call thigh length, is one we use. We try to explain why on our website here: http://www.rodnikkel.com/www3.telus.net/public/rdnikkel/Seat_Length_and_Thigh_Length_November_2006.pdf

Tom, Very nice for a first saddle. Looking forward to seeing more of your work. Rod

Thank you again for your kind comments. I’m glad we were able to allay your concerns and build you what you wanted and needed for your horse. This is a really good example of how we build a tree when someone wants to fit “their horse”, and explaining the process may help clear up some confusion. People seem to be worried that if we fit “a” horse that the saddle will not work on any other horses. That isn’t how we do it. Rejoneador was great to work with. He sent us the pictures, back drawings, and information the way we asked. From that information, we knew what body type of horse we were trying to fit. (His horse is in pretty good shape for an 18 year old too!) Turns out that though he may be a wider horse than what is common in Germany, he is pretty typical of a lot of the ranch quarter horse types in western North America. The specs we used for his tree are a very common combination that we build, so his saddle could easily be used by a fair proportion of riders over here too. It sure isn’t a “one horse” saddle! We just want to be clear that we use the back drawings or Dennis Lane system numbers to tell us what body type of horse we are working to fit. When we talk of fitting the shape of the horse, it is a combination of bar spread (hand hole width), bar angle, gullet height, crown on the bottom of the bars, etc. (We try to explain this on our website at www.rodnikkel.com.) It isn’t that we shape the bars to the reverse of the back drawings sent to us. That would not work! I was also really happy to read Rejoneador’s comments about how, despite some initial misgivings, he trusted our judgment in regard to the fit. We are definitely standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to the bar design we use. Rod had good instruction and good patterns (similar to a lot of other hand made tree makers) when he started, though we have tweaked a few things along the way, as every tree maker does. The basic design of the bar is what makes it work so well on a horse, giving edge relief and bar tip relief where it is needed, but having good surface area for weight distribution. They work well, even though they may go against some of the “saddle fit rules” that are getting more prominent on the internet these days. (The more I read, the more I become convinced that some of the original makers of these “rules” didn’t know much about saddle trees or even Western saddles in general.) I believe it is getting harder for customers to trust the judgment of the tree and saddle maker now due to all the "information" available on the net now, especially since what most of what the saddle makers on this forum seem to agree on goes against a lot of the “common knowledge” on the horse forums today. Rejnoeador is much more knowledgeable than most horse owners, even very experienced ones, and we sure appreciate him giving us the benefit of the doubt and going with what we suggested. The proof is always in the pudding, and we are very glad (though not surprised) that things are working out so well for you.

Wow, you had me scared for a minute there! Glad the tree is working out so well for you and your horse. Thank you for the compliments. It was good working with you. Rod

We have built a few duplicate trees lately where they want to use the old leather but on a new tree. To make sure we get it as close as possible, we ask the saddle maker to send us the old tree and any leather that goes back on the tree - basically everything except fenders and strings. First we measure everything up frontwards, sideways and backwards and then we ususally derawide the tree (much easier on some than others) and take it apart so we can use the parts to make patterns and get the shapes exact. Anyway, it sure is interesting to see the differences in how different maker's trees are built. Here are three cantles. The one on the right is ours. We keep the rim of the cantle flat. It is the only piece of outside of the original block of wood we start with that is left when we are done making the cantle. The one in the middle is from a Tenny Hawes tree. The concavity on the rim was more noticable on the tree than it is on the table. The one on the left is an old Standard tree. Not only have they taken down the front corner but they have taken the top back from about 1/2 way up so it makes for a pretty convex rim looking from the side. That one was fun to duplicate!

I was hoping some experienced saddle makers would give their take on this as well, but our answer would be "Whatever ones that tree maker asks for." Not much help, but it is the "actual fact". I have put together a new deal to send to our customers who want to do back drawings for our trees. (It is basic back drawing instructions in line with where Dennis Lane has you put his cards. His method is much more consistent than what we were trying to do before.) But the instructions may not be helpful for another tree maker because where those drawing are taken can make a difference in interpreting them. If they are used to getting back drawings from the middle of the wither pocket, for example, having one from right behind the shoulder blade without knowing where it came from could make for a pretty big difference in how the tree fits. We have found Dennis Lane's card system - www.dennislane.com.au - to be the easiest to communicate, easiest to compare between horses and most consistent method of explain the shape of a horse, especially long distance. But if the tree maker doesn't have or use the system, it won't work for you to give them the numbers. What we did (and other tree makers would need to do) was go out with a bunch of trees and the cards to a bunch of horses and figure out what tree specs fit that horse the best to our eyes, and then carded the horse and kept track. Over time we figured out that for such and such numbers we would use this and that specs in the way we built trees. We don't build the trees to be shaped like the reverse of the cards. We build the trees to fit the horse that those shapes represent. The cards are just a really easy way for a saddle maker to tell us the shape of the horse since they are just systematized back drawings. Bowden is the only production tree maker we know of that uses the Dennis Lane system. We also build a lot of trees just by discussing with the maker what type of horses they are building for. Our trees have a fair amount of lee way built into them so they get along well with a range of body types, though they fit the center of the bell curve of that range best of course. If you are trying to fit a common body type (working ranch horse for us would be a very common body type) then the tree maker will probably have a good idea on what will fit that type in your area or from a basic description. But if you are looking to fit an uncommon body type for that maker, that is when it is ideal to get more information. We have been asked to build trees for a couple of Andalusians lately. Seems there are broader Andalusians and very narrow Andalusians. Since they are not a common type of horse for us to build for, it is nice to have more information to go on than "kinda narrow, but not too much". A J W, what measurements do you take now?

Very nice job, Justin. Good to see our trees being so well covered up! Thinking about a time line to quit your day job yet?

It's good to see our trees covered that nicely. Rod

Steve, Beautiful work again, as always. When we build similar trees, we just call them whatever the customer wants them called!

Rod uses a draw knife. He touches it up pretty regularly as he works. He built himself a fleshing pole of curved plywood that he sets up on a couple of upended barrels. I'm not sure quite how wide it is but less than 3 feet. That is a set of vise grips he has tied to the pole with binder twine. Works well to hold the hide in place for working on those edges where the hide wants to fall off the other side. He hasn't modified the set up in a long time so he must be pleased enough with how it works.

We just found out Tuesday that we will be able to give an hour long talk at Wichita Falls. It will be on Saturday, October 2nd at 1 pm and is a part of the Wichita Falls Boot and Saddle Makers show. We are looking forward to having this opportunity. Hope to meet some of you there!