daviD A Morris

Not sure what they actualy teach in that horseland course, but having seen some of its students work, I suspect it just teaches simple answeres to complex problems which also has the effect of providing its students with great confidence. And as you and I know, once you get past the obvious things like " make sure that there is clearance from the spine" in the finer details it there is not always a simple answer. Of course I will concede that you can not always judge the quality of a course by just some of its students, some people study a course and then just go off on their own tangent anyway. I've seen the SFT qualification associated with Saddlefit4life, but as it is used as letters after a persons name I was kinda hoping that there was some more "bona fide" substance to the qualification! Like from a goverment type institution not just from a saddle maker. And it may have, I was just wondering from where. Denise, why don't you come round to my place and I'll set you an exam on saddle fit, and if you pass I'll award you a certificate that will add more letters after your name. Not sure what those letters might be. Next week I'll come to your place and you can award me master's degree in saddle fit.

I've also came accross the qualification SFT (Saddle Fit Technician). Where does one study for that qualification, who accredits it and just how good is that accreditation? Can anyone point me to a book on horse anatomy that shows (or refers to ) the paraspinal ligaments. I watched a very profesionaly run presentation by a qualified SFT in which, amoung other things, she emphasized the importance of the saddle not apply weight to the paraspinal ligaments down either side of the spine. Yet my search through books and equiries with qualified vets, so far has not been able to find any reference anywhere to the paraspinal ligaments. It is as if there is no such ligaments - I'm Just curious, and trying to fill in my education, not trying to cause any controversy here. As others have said, this topic is a "can of worms" and can be highly controversial. eagerly awaiting further education dam

Thanks Randy, We'd just call that cardboard. dam

What exactly is "construction paper" its sure to be called by a different name here in Australia!!. I find that by unsing a needle in the machine which has the point ground off blunt works better. The sharp needle makes a slit which just closes up again and the powder does not go through the holes onto the leather, the blunt needle "punches" holes that don't close up as much. Maybe if I was using construction paper that would not happen. regards dam

Celticleather, London school of Saddlery, is that where Cordwainer's saddley course went to? I often wondered what happened to all the equipment etc went to? Who was teaching saddlery when you were there?? Regards dam

try this one http://www.saddlerytraining.com/ From what I have heard it is very good. dam

Chris, Thankyou for that. dam

Hi all, I'm interested in researching these computerised pressure mapping pads (Force Sensing Arrays) that can be used to guage the pressures that a horse is feeling under the saddle. So far I have read a couple of technical papers and seen brief clips of them on U-Tube videos. I saw one at Equitana 1991, but assume that they have come a long way in the 17 years since. Hoping that someone here would have had some direct hands on experience with them and share that experience with us. From the papers that I have read and one person I have spoke with so fay, these pads, like everything, have some limmitations. Appreciate any help, thanking you in advance. dam

Ok, you got me on that one And I prefer do my walking in miles, there's not as many of them 1 to 1-1/2 miles vs 1.6 to 2.4 km. Thanks to everyone else for their input, I wrote my reply in haste and didn't explain very well. dam

Margaux, This a question that frequently arrises and I keep coming back to the analogy of footwear for people: Does everyone in your family wear the same size shoes? probably not, and yet - Has anyone in your family had a pair of shoes handmade especialy for just for them? Probably not. The only place this analogy fails is in the fact that saddles outlast horses. People sell horses and horses die (unfortunate but true) and then want to use their $4000 saddle on another horse. Not many people share shoes around like we do with saddles! If you are an elite athlete then you might get footwear specialy made for you, just like if your horse is competeing in $50,000 cutting or reining event you might spend an extra $1000 making sure his gear is going to give him every advantage. There are varying degrees of fit, from perfect to just-good-enough to get by with. I have a pair of work boots (off the shelf quality and price) which I wear around my home and workshop area, have done for over a year, no problem, the fit is just good enough for the purpose. A couple of months ago I went to a freinds ranch to skin a dead cow for the rawhide. I had to walk about 1 to 1-1/2 miles in total up and down a very steep hill. Those same boots chewed the hell out of my feet, I had blisters fore and aft, and couldn't wear those boots again for another 2 weeks. Now the major difference between that situation and what can happen to horse is that, I have the choice of putting on the boots and the socks, and the choice or when and where I walk in them, a horse is slave to the whims of its owner/rider, and the horse can't speak the same language and say, hey this saddle was fine while we were trail riding on the flat but now we are tripping steers (or whatever) it is hurting like hell! My opinion is that unless your horse's back is some very extreme shape then there will be trees out there that will fit him/her pretty good and they will also fit a bunch of other horses of the same shape. look forward to hearing more from you Margaux as you are not the only one asking these questions and it gives us the oportunity to share this with everyone. regards dam

Margaux, You are absolutely right! It is not that simple, and then you have to make alowances for the horses movement and the back changes shape throughout the stride and diferent strides and activities etc. And that leads to such a wide variation in opinions on what, where and how those allowances for movement should be made. Ask 6 "saddle fitter's" for their opinions and you'll get 7 answers! Even with a casting of the hors's back, you can not just make allowance for the padding (perpendicular to the surface) and then make a "negative" of it and use that as the bottom of the tree - it don't work! It is much like footwear for people. The last that shoes are made on is not the same shape as a casting of a person's foot. OK what I've just said may sound very negative and you may now be thinking - "well, why bother with any of this". Well Dennis Lane and I (and many others) beleive that the first step toward reliably improving the comfort for the horse, is to be able to accurately describe the shape of the horse's back, and then communicate that shape to anyone else accross the world. The advantages of this particular system are that this communication can take place without having to send anything through the post. Another advantage is that the numbers designated to each of the shapes make for easy comparison of one horse to another, for example: anyone familar with the system (anyone who owns a set of the cards) imediately recognises that a horse who measures D8 or D9 is a very solid wide horse compared to say a D4, and an R12 has a lot of "front to rear" rock. A horse that measures R6 is very flat along the back. The Dennis Lane Cards are solely a method of measuring the horse's backs, recording those measurements and comunicating those measurements. The ideal way for the treemakers to incorporate the Dennis Lane Cards into their communication system is to measure the horses that they have made those trees to idealy fit. Take for example Rod Nikkel would have access to a horse that his "full QH - 4-1/2 x 93" trees were designed to fit, and now he measures that horse with the DL cards and finds that that horse measures D7D8D8R9. Now Rod knows that that particular tree fits horses in that range. If he then recieves an order for a tree to fit a horse that is D9 with R12 rock, he knows that this horse is slightly wider/fatter and has more "front-to-rear" rock. Please do NOT quote these numbers/measurement I am just making them up as an example. Another treemaker's "full QH" fit may have been designed to fit a horses even wider. He may have had access to horses that measure D9. Both trees will still fit horses up in that D7 - D9 range, to varying degrees. While there are 9 different sizes in the cross-section measurements, we are definitely not advocating that there should be 9 different sizes of tree. Hope the explanation helps dam

Hi, I have not had time to read all the post here in detail so someone else may have already mentioned this: That thin white pad on the bottom appears to be smaller in area than the saddle skirts. I believe that any padding needs to be larger than the skirts or the edge of it will cause a ridge under the skirts. Would be interested to hear the result of just going without that white pad. Just my 2 cents worth. dam

I am very impressed with Olsons and Diablo! They both replied to my email enquiries within 24 hours. Thanks dam

Thanks for that guys. I've sent emails off to both of them. I'd forgoten about Diablo, I used their silver back in the 1980's and liked it. dam

I want to acquire some corner-plates for a saddle which have the angle of the outside profile at LESS than 90 degrees. All of the off-the-shelf corner plates that I have seen so far are made up for an angle of the back corner of the skirts to be 90 degrees. I try to have the bottom line of my skirts run pretty close to parrallel to the ground when the saddle is on the horse. I then like to have that back line of the skirts (up over the loins), kicked out a little at the bottom. I just measured that angle on one of my saddles which is finished. A plain saddle with no silver. And it measures 82 degrees. The radius of the curved part doesn’t matter to me. A smaller radius just makes a pointier/squarer skirt, I can handle that. Also if the outside profile is curved all the way (sector of a circle) and no strait line then there would be no angle to measure, as in photo 2. And any angle of the skirts could blend in, tangent to the curve. How do other saddle makers manage to fit corner plates that have a 90 degree angle to them? Or are there some quality plates out there that have a sharper angle to them? Is there a reason why all the off-the-shelf corner plates that I have seen are made with a 90deg outline?? I have a customer who wants reasonable quality silver on her saddle, but not one-off hand made stuff. $140 to $200 per pair, price range for stirling overlay. For off-the-shelf quality for price I realy like Hansen’s stirling overlayed silver, and that is in the right price range for her saddle, but I have only ever used their conchos and not their corner plates as yet. I have emailed Hansens asking if they could send me a tracing of their corner plates, but due to Christmass and New Year etc, haven’t heard back from them yet. In the meantime just wondering what other saddle makers do? Here is a picture of cornerplates from Hansen’s website and they appear to have that straight region on the outside shape like I tried to show in photo 2. Hope this doesn’t sound like I’m “picking on” Hansen’s, as I said I like their quality and value for conchos and every other manufacturer of silver for saddles that I have seen does the same thing with the outline of their corner plates. Here is a saddle that I made a long time ago with Montana Silversmith’s corner-plates which have long straight sides which of course are at 90 degrees. I managed to “fudge” the outline of the skirts to look like they are parrallel to the silver and still get the bottom line and back-line of the skirts looking practical, but on a saddle without any of that silly silver lacing on the edges, I’d rather not have to try that “fudging” trick. Any and all thoughts, help, comments on this topic are much appreciated. Have happy, jolly and safe New Year. dam

Yeh, good question. just how flexible is ideal for a working saddle. someone, one day might do an in-depth study into it. I expect the answer would be somewhere between more flexible than a heavily fibreglassed tree and less flexible than those trees made from sheets of plastic. There is an engineering firm in my town that has a load testing machine that could test the modulas of elasticity of tree for me, but it would cost money and also would need to make some kind of jig to hold the tree. Science aside: notice the difference in the "life" in a rawide covered tree than a fibreglass tree, just by dropping it onto your bench from a few inches above. I've got no better word for it than "life" in the tree. That characteristic is probably just elasticity. The fibreglass covered trees just go "CLUNK" as they hit the bench. and the more glass that has been used to cover them the "deader" the "clunk"! However I should qualify this by saying that there is a great variety amoung fibreglass covered trees. The ones I'm talking about are glass cloth and polyester resin. Jon Watsabaugh who is a contributor to this forum makes trees covered in epoxy and glass. From what I have seen, they would be the best glass covered trees you'll find. I have not had the pleasure yet of actualy seeing one in real life and can't wait for the experience. I make rawhide covered trees, and also fibreglass covered trees, and have made saddles on carbon fibre covered trees. I still prefer the "life" in the rawhide covered trees.

SITTINGUPHIGH1, I'd be very interested in hearing about your experience with the FSA (force sensor array) pads, if you buy one. I've also considered buying one, but last time I enquired, the best deal I could find was about $17,000. Of course all technology related products are always coming down in price, and its been a while since I got that quote. I have also heard mixed reviews regarding the effectiveness of them. I first saw one in Germany in 1991 and I thought that the guy demonstrating them (who was not a saddler or tree maker) was drawing some very incorrect inferences from the data shown by the pad. Anyways, I'm interested in where you go with this. Just a note about the photos in the first post you made here. I'm glad that you have now posted a link to american-flex cause I had the impression that you had taken the photos yourself and I could not understand how you could have taken the photos and yet be unsure what was under the rawhide. Also your comment saying "its the strongest tree they make" yet not know what company made it. As far strength goes, that rawhided tree is a comparatively week tree anyway, just look at how thin the fork is. Any well made western saddle tree with a lamminated fork and decent rawhide would have at least 5 times the strength of the tree in that photo. Flexibility All trees flex. For that matter all materials flex, even a concrete tree would have some flex, just very little. Its a question of the degree of flexibily. For those interested just look up Youngs Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity. It is probably a study which someone should do: Just how fexible should a tree be? I think that too much flex accross the the front can cause problems. Its like having a very large "clothes-line peg" with a very strong spring placed accross the horse's back and then a load on it, so that as the horse moves the spring loaded peg moves up and down slightly but squeezeing all the time. Just my humble opinion dam

Keith, Thanks heaps for that, and to all the others who have contributed. I've printed this topic to keep if for future reference. Regards dam

What do you guys recomend for finish on a saddle which the customer wants it to maintain a light color. The color of natural leather. Next saddle I'm making is for a western-pleasure competitor and those guys seem to pride themselves on having the lightest colored saddle. In the past I have used some kind of sealer, name of which would have no meaning in the USA, which I bought from Birdsall's Leather, in Sydney. It is something that they make or relabel. Trouble is, this sealer will not let any oil penetrate. After about a year the customers usualy oil their saddle and anywhere that the sealer has worn off of, eg. parts of fender and seat jockeys, the oil does penetrate, then the saddle looks "bloody awful". After reading what Keith has said I'm now realising that not just the product used but the method of application can make a big difference. Keith, The lighter natural colored (as opposed to the dark colored saddles which I personaly prefer) that you make, are they antiqued? If I understand corectly you just antique and then apply neat-lac. apply the neatlac with wool-skin and work it in. Do you apply any oil or anything else before the neat-lac? Do those saddles darken much with your finishing process? How many years do you think the saddles keep the light color? Thank you guys heaps for this topic, it has come along at just the right time for me. regards dam

Blake, That is interesting. I noticed when I was in Argentina that the lomillo style saddles had a definite indenation in the felt pads under the lomillo (tree). At the time I didn't think to ask if that came about from use or was built in when making it. When I find a photo I will post it here. One of the pads that I used was 1" pure felt. about $140 worth of felt. Thanks dam

Pete. It will be good to meet you someday. Jeff Freeman says lots of good things about you! I can only assume that you are same person. dam

That is realy interesting. I've never heard of Grimleys, do you think that it was a Tasmanian company? I notice that they used blackwax thread on some stirrups leathers. The old guys that I first learned from had done their apprenticeships between 1910 and 1920 and according to them black wax was reserved for harness and was a no-no on riding gear especialy saddles. Reason being that in hot weather you don't want the rider getting any traces of the black on them anywhere, also when doing the actual stitching it can leave marks on the product, which doesn't matter on harness because it is black anyway. I wonder if using black wax thread on riding gear was unique to Grimelys or if it had been common practice prior to the 1910s and was then fading out of practice. Do North Americans use the term gross for trhe quantity of 144. Do they only use score (20) when reciting the famous speech " Four score and seven years ago ...." or do they use it in every day practice. Even though you guys use a system of measurements based on imperial you do not use stone which is a weight of 14 pounds. I find this all very interesting. Back when Australians used imperial measurements I was actualy ordering buckles, rings and dees by the gross up until about 1979-80. All very interesting dam

Yeh, since Troy mentioned the McClellans earlier I've been thinking about that too. I woudn't have thought that smooth-out leather on the bottoms of the McClellans would have given any more grip to a saddle pad than the rawhide on the bottom of a saddle tree. So I wonder why they always slip-out when I tried it. As I said, it has happened with a number or different Navajos and felt pads, a variety of trees and quite a few rigging positons and combinations of all of the above. What kind of saddle-blanket did the cavalry use? One day I will try covering the bottoms of the bars with just leather like a McClellan and see if that makes a difference. Thanks dam

Just to add to everything that Bruce has said: IMHO, the skirts also help keep the saddle pad or blanket in place. Many times I have just put a rigging on a tree and a pair of stirrup leathers and stirrups, and riden arround in this. The purpose has been to try out varying rigging possitions, and various trees on a variety of horses. And I can say that without skirts the saddle blankets just shoot right out the back, on every one, regardless of pad type, rigging positon, or tree. So what I have taken to doing is just make sure the rigging (what ever type D or flat plate) has just a little overhang at the top front where hte bar meets the front lip of the fork. Then I just put one stitch on each side throught the pad and the leather. dam

I also have the polyethylene cutting board. Bought it from a butcher's supply wholesaler, but the biggest sheet I could get was 6' x 4' and only 3/8" thick. The thickness is ok, but my cutting-out bench is 4' x 8' so 2' of it is not covered . My polyethylene had a smooth finish, works fine, last for years. My ideal cutting-out bench (which I now have) is an island bench that I can walk all the way around, not built against a wall. Also not too high, just below waist height, that way I can easily reach out into the middle of a side of leather when laid out. The frame is made of heavy chunks of hardwood and braced well, I can not stand to have any bench which is wobbly! If space was not an issue I would have 2 cutting out benches like this, so that I could have 2 sides laid out at the same time when cutting out for saddles.