daviD A Morris

Barra, One of the best cores you can get for a bosal is the guts out of the down-tube of an old shearing plant. Now I know that will be all gobledy-gook to an emerican. But to an ausie it just means, find an old shearing plant, remove the down-tubes and and pull out the "guts". traditionly (up till about 40 years ago) they were made of twisted rawhide. thats why if some-one accidently ran the machinery in the reverse direction the guts would unwind and make one big mess. These days they are made from some kind of solid plastic which also makes for excelent bosal cores. The only problem is that they all come in just one size. they are about 3/8" to 1/2" somewhere in that range. If you are anywhere a rural supplies outlet just buy the new gut (or core) for shearing plant down-tubes. regards dam

The 14th thoracic vertebrae is found further rearward that most people first think. Much closer to the blue dots in these back mappings than to the red dots. To “palpate the spinous processes” – just big words for “feel the tops of the vertebra” If some hay is placed on the ground for the horse to eat, then while his head is down it is possible to feel the tops of the vertebrae quite easily. With the horse’s head down the supraspinous ligament is pulled taut making finding the vertebrae easier. Commencing at the front of the wither and working rearward. thoracic vertebrae number one, T1, is not able to be felt as it is too short. T2, through to about T8 or T9 can easily be determined, by feeling for the gaps between the tops of them. T3 is technically the highest point of the wither, but in practice that can vary from one horse to another. At around T8 or T9 the vertebrae can’t be determined any more and one needs to then start back at the sacrum and work forward. There is a very easily distinguished large gap between the last lumbar vertebra, L6, and the first sacral vertebra right on top of the rump, at the lumbosacral junction. Working forward determine each vertebra in order. L6, L5, L4, L3, L2, & L1. Followed by T18, the last thoracic vertebra, then T17, T16, and you probably won’t be able to determine any more. Put some chalk marks at the T16 and the T9 or whichever were the last that could be determined. Now estimate where the T14 is. In this photo I have marked:- - T3 at top of the wither, - approximately around the edge of the cartilage elongation of the scapula, - T16 - The gap between L6 and the sacrum. I think there is actually a name for the gap, someone help me out here. - T9 is also indicated however it is actually slightly further forward than it appears in this photo. Angle of photo combined with angle of the line which I drew have distorted somehow. The point is:- Between T9 and T16 there is T10, T11, T12, T13, T14, & T15, 6 vertebra and T14 is 2nd from the rear. Further rearward than what you first think. Note that the horse in this photo is precisely 14.2 hands high and has quite a short back even for his height. There are several other accepted methods of determining the position of the T14. Pete Gorrell explains them very eloquently in the classes that he gives and the other methods are actually less involved than the one explained here, however, “off-the-top-of-my-head” I would not want to explain them without my notes for fear of making a technical error and to keep this posting relatively brief. All the methods concur about the position of T14. In my experience, for the purposes of using Dennis Lane’s cards, an inch either way doesn’t change a category into which a horse fits best. There is just not enough “twist” in the contour of the horses shape to jump it from one category to the next within a few inches movement from front to rear. As and indication, here is a superimposition of the “S” cards for the profile at T14 (or cross-section B ) just to show the relative change in angle from one category to next. Let me just emphasise: DO NOT GO THROUGH ALL THIS PROCEDURE TO FIND T14 EVERY TIME YOU USE THE CARDS TO MEASURE A HORSE. Just use the lowest point of the back. Happy to hear from any one on this topic, my mind is open. dam

Things have change regarding postage from the USA. Some time early last year USPS decided that there would not longer be surface mail to australia, there is now only airmail. 2 years ago I posted boxes of stuff weighing around 30lb each from the USA back to Austrlia for around US$80 each. they took about 9 or 10 weeks to get to here, but that was OK. Last May I went to do the same thing, and oh no, no more surface mail it will now cost me over US$200 for each 30 pound package, but it will get here in 10 days. For my purposes I'd prefer longer delivery, cheaper rate. UPS, DHL quoted heaps more. What is going on and why? anyone got any better ideas for reasonable freight to Aus? dam

David I like the little bucksin horse, he's my size. This raises another question:- Do find that as people get older and fatter they need a larger saddle seat, but are buying smaller horses so that they can mount with less strain? The result is you are trying to fit a longer seat length saddle onto smaller horses that have shorter backs? What do we do? regards dam

Withers at different angles??? I thought that they were all prety much staight up and down, and run lengthwise along the horse !!! just joking I assume that you mean the thoracic vertebrae that form the withers are at different angles on diferent horses. Given that the vertebrae should be well cleared of any contact from the saddle I would not have thought that the angle of those vertebrae would not be significant. That the angle of the verterbra would only make the withers extend further (or lesser) rearward along the back. Which then becomes important to the saddle maker (rather than tree maker) to make sure that the front edge of the ground seat (back edge of hand hole ) clears the wither. I'm sure that we've all seen a saddle or two put on a horse with a long high wither and the gullet cleared the wither but the front edge of the ground seat pressed on the spine. Especially back in the days of the "buster welch" flat seat cutting board saddles. David, I'm just trying to fully understand exactly what you mean, cause when I first read your post I was thinking that you were drawing a correlation between the shape of the horse's back where the bearing surface of the bars fit, and the angle of the withers . Just wondering if you could clarify that for me regads dam

Sidney, Thankyou verymuch for that link to the w3schools, I've started studying it. dam

Thanks Sidney, So if i understand correctly it makes it improves the efficiency of very fancy and otherwise complicated layouts. And I can change the styles of a whole bunch of pages by just making changes in one file, the style sheet. Do modern webpage building programs come with CSS or do i need some specific CSS program? Once again thankyou dam

Hi All, Just over 10 years ago I came up with an idea for a knot. The usual O'le Fiador knot is basicaly what I call a "terminal turks head" (not sure if that is the correct term) but tied with a closed bight at the top, which is what makes it a little more tricky to tie. The Knot that I have come up with, has the same appearance and sequence as a "spanish ring knot", over two under two five part sequence. but it is tied with 2 closed loops coming out one side, a closed loop and the 2 loose ends exiting the other side. Thus it is used as just a fancier (slightly bulkier) Fiador. The second part of my "brag" here is that I then solid modelled the knot in AutoCad. This was a bit of brain strain for me, but I got there. It is the autocad modell that shows on my webpage how to tie it. I've had this displayed on my website for the past 10 or so years, and have occasionaly had some emails regarding it but my website is pretty obscure! Thought others might be interested also in this method of showing how to tie a knot. But maybe by now there is specific software out there for modelling knots. Just wondering if this has been done before. go to http://home.exetel.com.au/damorris/ then click on link on left hand side to "knots" "Bragging" dam

OK.... I'm goin to ask a dum question here. but if i don't ask I'll never know. What is CSS ??? I did manage to build my own website with netscape compose, but that was over 10 years ago and its past time to upgrade it. Thanks for help dam

Well said Bruce, I've come to the exact same conclusionsdam

There are some positive things that we could say about that rough tree. It does have nice "bucket" shape to the seat. Which makes me think that it was made by somebody who realy had a definite (and good) idea of what they wanted in the shape of the seat of their saddle. As for the bondo??? when joinery techniques fail - use bondo!! Notice how the back of the cantle undercuts so far- makes the cantle very weak. And there is no excuse for the selection of timber, those knots are scary. Lets not be too critical, the person who made it, might have been working from photos only and limited tools. I just posted it here as an example of how far " behind the eight ball" you are starting, if you do not have help. who knows - it might be first tree made by someone who went on to be a great tree-maker. The people who showed me this tree told me who they thought made it, however I can't beleive it, because I spent a few days at that person's workshop when in the USA in '87, and the workmanship that I saw was excellent. So lets not be too hasty. It does well to remember the words of Shakespear's Orthello: "....he who robs me of my good name, takes that which not enriches him, but makes me poor indeed". dam

Bugsy, Sory to sound like I'm just trying to put-you-off, but I agree totaly with Bruce. To give you an indication, here are a couple of photos of someone's homemade "I'll save myself some money and it'll be fun anyway" attempt at making a tree. Don't bother starting with trees unless you intend to do lots of them and if you are serious about it, find someone to learn from. Why spend hundreds of hours figureing out some specific details that someone else can teach you in a matter of hours. And I'm not exagerating when I say hundreds of hours - the 3D geometry of saddle trees is very complicated. One very famous saddle/saddle tree maker in the USA told me that he had an architect freind try to calculate out the mortise angles for where the cantle fits the bars (and the fork fits to the bars). The architect could not do it. Another very well known tree maker paid several thousand dollars to a mechanical engineer for the same thing and got nothing usefull for his money. On the other hand - if you seriously do want to be treemaker - then I wish you luck and will happy to give you any tips that I can. However it is frustrating for me if I spend a lot of my time helping someone who then only makes one tree. Maybe one day I will do that book!!! dam

A couple of pics of my splitter with details of imprinting on the blades. luckily I have 3 blades for mine and the writing is on all of them. Notice how I have it set-up over the edge of the bench so that the offcuts just drop straight into the trash can. I also have a solid cover made to go over the whole splitter cause people can not resist turning those nobs!!! dam

Very sad to hear of Verlane's passing. I had corresponded with her a few times by email and then made a point of visiting her when I was in the USA in May '06. She had an extraordinarily broad range of knowledge and was so willing to share it all. Also talked with her for a while at Sheridan last May. Not only her leatherwork but also her illustrations and communication talents inspire me. Verlane will be greatly missed, and her work will always be an inspiration to those who follow. ars longa vita brevis Art is forever, life is brief. dam

OK, the branding on mine says: PAT'D SEPT 13 1859 D HANSON NORTH W CARE. NH PAT'D MAY 24 1864 Not sure why it has two patent dates. and on one of the blades (I have 3 blades for mine) the "C" in "NORTH W CARE. NH" is actually an "E", but on the other two blades it is a "C". When I get time I'll photograph and upload it here for you. Meanwhile does anyone know any more about the history of these brilliant splitters? no matter how thin you split a piece of leather these splitters never chop your leather in half. The only mistake you can make going too thin is that the piece you are pulling it with may not be strong enough and it will just break, but the blade never cuts it right through like happens with other splitters. dam

I have one identicle to that. Yes they are the very best of splitters, when the blade is fresh sharpened I can pull a full 9 inch wide stip of leather through it. I'm pretty sure it is a randall, when in the workshop later i will check the brand on it and post here. Regards dam (just remember: whoever dies with the most tools wins, OK !!!)

I'm with Andy on the "try to disuade them from spending $500 on a $400 saddle. I'll always make the customer aware of the cost of new saddle which is similar and the value of their own saddle, so that they don't get the surprise afterwoods that they have spent more than the saddle is worth. I also have to put my weight behind Johanna's comments about the value your own time and materials are independent of the value of the repair you are working on. Another point to consider is this: If were to buy all the components to build a motor car, that is, purchase them all as spare parts. the cost would be something like 4 times the cost of just buying a new car off of the shop floor. But you try to complain to the spareparts shop about that!! Meanwhile, the way most saddlers price their repairs, it would work out cheaper than buying a new saddle if you asked them to; replace the tree, the seat, the ground seat, the swell cover, the horn cover,.....etc etc. on this old heap of junk, oh and while you are at it you might as well use a good quality tree and leather etc etc. Add up the cost of replacing every thing and it should be a lot more than the price of a new saddle!! that's my two cents worth, any comments welcome please regards dam (he who dies with the most tools wins!!!)

Bruce, Thanks for those statistics, I just made a note of them. Would you mind also giving us the cantle heights on each of them. I suspect that 16" wade with the shorter thigh length has a higher cantle, if not then the cantle is laid back more. Alternatively the fork could be sloped forward more (less likely). Or if both cantle heights are the same then it could be a combination of cantle laid back more and fork sloped forward a little more. All things for the saddle maker ordering a tree to think about. Hope that I have not confused everyone. Not much good giving my statistics at this stage as my trees vary all over the place depending on customer needs and i only make trees for my own needs. Needless to say being so flexible and accomodating in tree design is not the most profitable way to operate!!! regards dam

Is there a database anywhere that one can find out about the outcomes of lawsuits? I have heard of a number of cases both here (in Australia) and in the USA that involved people suing over faulty saddlery gear. But some of what you hear is myth, and it would be nice to be able to "check it out". One of my questions is: Does anyone know of any retailers who sell that sub-standard junk saddlery from 3rd-world countries being sued for injuries caused by poor quality horse gear breaking? I recently had a guy show me his "new" saddle that he bought from a tack store. The saddle was made in India, the rider is 6' 4" and weighs in at around 260 pounds, is a very novice rider and had also just bought a clydesdale horse to ride. I explained to him that I had seen a lot of those saddles with broken trees and/or the stirrup leather hangers break and that I did not consider it safe for him to use. If he had a serious accident from that poor-quality saddle, it is not much use him trying to sue the maker in India, so I assume the tack store's negligent sales person selling a product which was not "fit for its purpose" would be sued. From all this I can only guess that the tack store has a very good product liability insurance policy. For how many years after selling a new item is a maker liable for the safety of that product??? and check your insurance policy carefully, some policies have to be in place when the claim is actually made, which means that if I stop making saddles ( and go get a real job) I will still have pay insurance for product liability in case a claim comes in!! or conversely - if a claim was made against a saddle that I made and sold 4 years ago, when I was not insured, then I would not be covered. Insurance premiums might buy some "peace of mind" but not much!! I assume you guys read your insurance policies very carefully. regards dam

Saddle tree maker in Australia. Originaly learned tree making at a Dale Harwood clinic in Australia back in the early nineties. Then around 2001 spent time in Canada and USA with a number of the top makers. Denis and I spent the month of May this year travelling around western part of the USA (6113 miles of driving to be exact). regards dam

Just in case you are interested, Denis Lane is also sending trees to the USA, not big quantaties, just a few. They are all sold through Bob Ray, in Parrowan UT (check spelling). They are quite pricey, but very best of quality. If you are interested email me directly and I will get the contact details for you. regards dam

Here are some pics to try and explain the "government" measurement on a tree. I feel that it is the only true way to compare the seat size between trees as we all know that once you change the cantle height or angle or slope of the fork, the "seat" length, as measured traditionaly, is no longer comparable. I don't know the exact history of it being called "the government". Perhaps someone can fill us in on the history of the term. I was using this measurement as my "base" measurement for many years before I was told by Denis Lane that it is called the govt. Denis said that Warren Wright (tree maker from New Zealand) told him it is called the govt. from its origins of the way that Maclelan cavalry saddles are measured. Maclelans are measured along the top of the bar between the bottom of the fork and cantle. When making a tree it is one of the first measurements that I use, and it "governs" everything else to do with the top of the tree, that which affects fitting the rider. Does anyone have any more information about this? Does anyone else call it by this term? regards dam PS this is the first time i've attempted posting pictures on this forum. Hopefully it works, please be patient with me if it don't. I think these jpegs need to be viewed at 100% zoom otherwise they are very pixelated.

Denise, Yep, you got it. On a finished tree, once the seat part of the tree has been shaped, the line itself doesn't actualy exist. Yes I just make the 2 end points level with the table. It just levels the vast variations in bar shapes. I know that this helps with making comparisons between different trees, because when Denis and I were at Pete Gorrel's place, Denis and Pete were trying to make comparisons between trees from 2 different makers ( Pete has a fantastic collection of trees from just about every treemaker). Because the outline of the bars varied so much, lager or smaller fan at below the cantle points in particular tips the tree to a diferent angle when it is on the bench, but may not change the angle at all when on a horse. I have found that if you jack the back of the tree up to make those two points level with table it makes your measurements more comparable, and I had the oportunity to prove it on that day. Once the tree is rawhided you have to just make an estimate of where the botom of the "V" of those mortise cuts are, but you can usually get within an eighth of an inch at each end. Drawing will follow when my computer is up and running again. Blue flame firing out the back of the power-suply was not a good sign. regards dam Denise, "What else do I measure off that line?" I also measure the distance between the bars at the front and rear ends of that line as well as the seat length. regards dam

Denise, Hope I'm not going over stuff someone else has said, as I don't have enough time to read all the responses, but here is my little contribution to your piece:- "We were once asked to make a tree with the slope of the face of the cantle a specific number of degrees off the table. .... but the numbers are meaningless" When designing any new tree,( which I do on AutoCad, and, in the timber at the same time), my primary datum is the "government line". This is a line along the top (spine edge) of the bar starting from the corner formed at the front mortise of the bar ( for attachment of the fork) , to the coresponding corner of the "birdsmouth" mortise cuts at the back end for the cantle attachment. Denis Lane and Waren Wright started calling it the "government measurement" and apparently there is some history to it, going back to the US cavalry saddles and how they measured the seat length, which actualy makes more sense than the way western saddle seat lengths are conventionaly measured. Having said all that, this government line makes for a good datum. Now when it comes to trying to measure cantle slopes in a way that is comparable between trees, whithout being so affected by the variations in bar shapes. What I do is wedge up the back of the tree with a couple of little wooden wedges until the government line is parrallel to the table surface, before I measure any angles, or anything else for that matter. Of course this doesnot make every measurement absolutely comparable between one tree and another but it sure makes it a lot more comparable. You will also find that by jacking up the back of trees till that government seat line is parrallel to the table gives you a better picture of what it will look like on a horse. I'll post a diagram explaining the "government" line or measurement in the next couple of days. Just realised what I've said there, it would be a prety good diagram that could explain a government. Australian government couldn't be explained with a book full of diagrams, unless they were cartoons! regards dam

Hi All, This is my first time on a forum, so please be patient with me. First of all I need to say a big thankyou to Bruce for those kind comments. I'll take a few lines here to just introduce myself. I've been in saddlery since leaving school at age 16, back in 1976. Been making western saddles and saddle trees since 1983. I only make trees for my own saddles, at the moment, not for sale to other saddlers. 1992 I went off to university and gained a bachelors degree in engineering, not necessary (still can't spell!) to make saddle trees, but it helps. After finishing Uni I worked full time as an engineer for one year. Spent over 1500 hours using autoCad. I've known Dennis Lane since the early 1990's and recognised his incredible talents for making saddles and trees. Dennis is one very dedicated man to saddle trees, and his production methods are very smooth and efficient. Dennis and I have learned a lot from each other over the years. At the beginning of 2006 I convinced Dennis to travel with me to the USA and to visit the Sheridan trade show. Incidentally both of us had been to the USA before. Unfortunately due to other commitments he could not make the trip to the USA in 2006. 2007 I convinced Denis to come with me to the USA. Hank Statham another Ausie saddler also travelled with us, and wow did we have one good time! I just can't say enough good things about the Americans that I have met every time I have been there. The hospitality and friendliness just keeps me going back there. And next year I'll be there again. I must congratulate and thank Rod and Denise for such an excellent job describing Dennis's card system. you have captured the true essence of it, where some other people have had a little trouble understanding. Yes it is way of measuring the horses, and it still leaves a lot of room for the opinions of the tree makers as to how a tree "should" fit. This is not a "prescriptive" system for designing the shape of the bottom of a saddle tree. regards DAM