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I have been revisiting this old thread allot as we have 246 clones and 335 clones and are super familiar with Philippine machine market. I want to comment on the needle bar. In factories in the Philippines it is not uncommon for a mechanic to solder something in place to keep it there. If needed to be removed it is unsoldered. I don't think that is a weld in the picture. The way it is done is to take 50/50 plumbers type solder, buy the cheapest type of non alkaline battery then cut apart and throw away the internal carbon rod, then take the zinc from the carbon/zinc battery, dissolve zinc in muriatic acid until it won't take any more. The use of the 50/50 solder (50 percent tin and lead) and then electronics type flux (that becomes corrosive at soldering temps) after dipping some of the muriatic/zinc solution on the part to be soldered then use of the paste flux then higher power soldering iron and the solder is how it is done. This is done in folder manufacturing with thin stainless steel in this country as well as holding parts together in a factory setting. The picture says to me factory use but not for certain. Easy to desolder and clean the parts up actually with a higher power soldering iron. I would not have replaced that needle bar unless it is loose. Just saying all this because surely lots will visit this old thread and see the solder part thinking it is a hack job....yup allot of factory mechanics are hacks for certain but this particular solder is not necessarily a sign of that. The mismatched guage set however is a sign of a hack job but easily fixed...... I see lots of available parts for 335 than 246 as China now owns Pfaff is my understanding. We have both 335 and 246. I have been wondering I see 335G parts....is that the designation for the larger hook assembly by a "G". I also find in our later 335 clone it seems to be more willing to take larger needles and top thread than the plder 246 clones but just an observation. Regards, Mike

I own a couple 20u's and the "3/4 sized industrial" bed is standard width but a bit shorter than a full sized industrial. We have 188u, 123ts, 121dl and the 20u's all have the same cutout of the 3/4 sized industrial. Even the Juki TL-82 we have is the same cutout. The straight only and zig zag feet/needle plate are easily available. We don't use the 20u for straight stitching but instead use all our "20u" cutout machines on treadles and we use our 20u's for treadle bartacking which it excells at really well. Regarding harp space on a 20u it is actually slightly less than our White family rotary machines which are technically domestics. The 188u has a larger harp space however than the White. The reviews of the Chinese 20u109's are horrible on Amazon and these can be had super low cost but I've avoided them. I got one of mine new old stock made in Japan and it needed to be broken in before it treadled easily because the gearing. We are real fans of 3 step zig zags and getting a good 3 step ZZ is a real challenge so we use our 123ts Singers for that in a 20u cutout and largely/completely ignore our Juki LZ-1286 even it has a metal gear. We briefly had a Singer 457 zig zag and got rid of it as quick as possible as the nylon gear literally disintegrated. Our Singer 123TS also had nylon gear inside but we had brass replacements machined. My experience is the 20u43 and 20u63 we have both made in Japan are fine machines and everyone avoids the China ones. Last comment on ZZ machines we have two Juki LZ-391's (can do straight only with knee lifter for presser and zig zag with knee lifter moved to bight width). The LZ-391's and 271's (ZZ only) are fine machines but keep the gears greased as the machine will start to run hot doing free motion embroidery if not. All the machines mentioned except the lz-1286 are manually oiled machines so do well at slow speeds. The lz-1286 is a factory machine made mainly for 24/7 operation making bra straps etc. Best regards, Mike

turns out the 121DL machine was picked up yesterday and a single bobbin in the bottom with capability of two needles on top at spacing around 1/8 inch so I was misled. Any suggestions on upgrading to heavier springs would be great. Best regards, Mike

Hello group, Background: I have been buying Singer Artisan class machines of Japan and Brazil manufacture. These are for denim and canvas work to include denim felled seams. Understand this class of machine is not a leather machine and I am mostly buying these for treadle work as they fit lock stock and barrel on a Singer Gagamba (Tagolog language for spider) treadle. Typically I will use a 3/8 inch leather belt on a treadle with low flywheel wobble but might try 1/4 also. I read on the Sailrite forum (which is now closed for comments completely) where somone wanted to convert a 20u for heavier work and the moderator, Matt, responded that heavier springs will allow the 20u to easily sew through 6 layers of Sunbrella. Not sure what springs he is talking but they typically also use larger/heavier handwheels in their machines that only take cogged belts. 1) First will discuss the 188u's. Five pieces out of Japan of Singer 188u all in like new/pristine condition including the paint and decals. Some are "Professional" and others are "Blue Champion". There are differences between the first three that have arrived in the handwheel and it seems possibly even check spring. Cannot feel a difference in presser foot spring but one also has a different presser foot without any foot protruding to the rear while others do have a rear "extension" to the foot abeit small. One has a makeshift hand crank and a metallic handwheel came with fairly thick leather sewn off on ticket 20 thread perfect stitches. One has the presser foot without the rear extension and a plastic handwheel like what would be seen on Pfaff and the third is somewhee in the middle with a slightly smaller handwheel. For the 188u's what springs may I substitute and from what model machine to get heavier sewing in Canvas and Denim seams. What handwheels might I buy and install to replace the plastic handhweel. 2) I have a 20u43 coming enroute. Same questions with the springs and hand wheel as well as presser feet. 3) The most interesting in the bunch is the Brazil manufactured Singers. These are virtually impossible to find information on but the body is basically a 20u. Two are Singer 121DL. This is a double needle with fixed 1/4 inch guage. The DL stands for double lockstitch. Very interesting they would get this double needle underfeed only in an Artisan class machine but they did. The others are Singer 123TS. Another super interesting machine unable to find info and also 20u body. This is a straight with zig zag but the zig zag is a 3 step zig zag. 100 percent metal innards and outer with the exception of a fiber cam same as what is used on some of the 269w bartacks. The achilles heel on the 269w fiber cam is not age like on nylon cams. I've got some 269w's and the fiber cam does not deteriorate with age but instead if a needle breaks and falls down into the lower mounted piece that is horizontal it will eat up the fiber gear. In the case of the 123TS it is under the cover on the arm and mounted vertically. It is a non-issue with the worm gear mating it out of metal so all is super durable. Same questions apply on handwheel, springs, presser feet. We have enough of these machines where I could make two Artisan lines one being treadle and one being motor. Oh, also our lineup of Singer 16u-288's has increased as well with five more new old stock of the 16u-288 to match the other 288/188/88 we have one each of here already. We are welding and modifying treadles to make the base and foot pedal wider for the industrial machines. Once upper diferential feed, check spring, tension, and stitch length are tweaked these are incredible machines. We find the walking foot when tweaked out performs the Pfaff 34-0 on turning curves for pockets (also treadle mounted). We are confident in modifying the treadle bases as we already turned some 29k bases into left hand models with lots of metal fabrication/welding for use with our Singer 18u-322's. Best regards, Mike

Hello group, I have a Pfaff 335 clone and was trying to figure out if it is the large or small bobbin to order more than the one it was sold with. That part is easy enough I think and I'll figure it out for certain. I saw another post on 335's and their clones and a gent in Netherlands posted about taking a course on bag making. Wow, that sounds great. Is there books on bag making tricks and techniques with projects or a course in English? Please let me know if you have any info. regarding that. Advanced thanks and best regards, Mike

Hello, I bought a Singer 457u and got her home. Nylon cam was so old it crumbled. I can see two part numbers on Alibaba and assuming one of the Singer part number is a 3 step. Seller offered to change it to a Juki 1286 (3 step version) the 1280 series looks to be a clone of the 457. Does anyone know if the cams are interchangeable between the 1286 and 457 ? If so the 1280 series will also do specialty stitch like scallop. Best regards, Mike

Looks like I'll have a 269w here soon enough. I know for older Reece 101 and 104 it is not uncommon to have a machine that had done in excess of 1 million keyholes. We have three here working like a champ and all made in USA (104's AMF Reece). My tech was working on his last job with a 101 that was exceptionally old and seen very heavy use it's entire life (several decades of use on a production line). They were making 2k pairs a week and that was only while he was the steward of the machine in it's long operational life. He was able to keep that machine going and going and going enough to make the energizer bunny look like a snail. The 269w may be not quite in the same league but they are available here with proper maintenance manual, my mechanic has experience on them. This machine is equivalent 360 dollars. Seller is putting a fresh paint job on it and now common here is to send some parts off for re chroming which they are doing with some parts on this machine. Price includes table and motor. Delivery is equivalent 40 USD. The plan is to get maybe 3 or 4 of them going in the two production lines with the real gem, lk1900bhs, sitting proud and happy in the studio under good security and limited access to those only who are supposed to be there. Soon enough I'll run air lines from our main compressor to branch out to the two production line locations which each will have their own tank. From that I'll have LP air into the production line for easy cleaning. Also....I will DIY an air assist for the pedal. Found someone on youtube that is taking the gas assist cylinders for hatchbacks, drilling them out, and converting them to an air assist (for a different application than machines). For the air valve he is hacking a hand operated cleaner for LP air. I might not do this first but it's in the plan to do to reduce operator fatigue in case I double up or increase the spring clamping pressure. Most don't have the luxury of having a master mechanic around to train and assist in maintenance and if I didn't I'd be tightening my belt to buy another lk1900 then not sleeping as well concerned over theft. I've met enough that are good at maintaining them to feel confident in the purchases. If I'm lucky and digest the training I'll also be able to be, I hope, one of the few who can brave the 27 page "essential alignment guide" exactly step by step to keep em tuned up and running. Look like for most woven cotton denim work here it was 42 stitch machines with 28 for lighter synthetic materials. They use a smaller needle as well on this. Best regards, Mike

Hello group, I'm in the process of buying a used Feifeng ff335 that is a clone of a Pfaff 335 and looks pretty darned close to the Cowboy 7335. It has the binding attachment hardware on it that follow the needle feed. I'm overseas but American here in Philippines. Seller bought it for 40k php (about 800 USD), used it for a couple projects tried to sell it for 25k php and lowered it to 20k php roughly 400 USD. It has a table that is a standard looking commercial table with a cutout and a servo motor without any reduction (I want to change that). I'm jumping on it as we have the heavy hitter cb-4500 and various M bobbin single and double needle compound feed machines (as well as vintage Singer compound and walking feet) but nothing like this which can do binding and work well with the medium to medium-heavy on a cylinder to boot. We do have some 18u322's but again nowhere near the capabilities here with this 335 clone. I know this won't be quite as nice as a Cowboy as they are gone through in country carefully but this is a very lightly used machine that does work and has zero wear on it from appearances. So I saw a thread that discussed the different hook sizes on the Pfaff 335 and it appears the newer are all larger hooks and I'm assuming the Cowboy 7335 is also? I'm guessing I'll just need to find a source of the bobbins and buy them in hopes my assumption it is the larger of two sizes. I'm seeing the bobbin cases on Amazon of all places in sets of 5. Specs on mfg. website state large hook, 135x17 needle/dp17 (nice I like that as we have other machines with this needle obviously) but doesn't have the lift of the foot so I'm looking for input on that related to the Cowboy 7335. It talks about beveled gears being encased in grease. This reminds me of the beveled gear in our domestic 201k23 where some one removes the cover and cleans out old grease replacing it with new. Looks to be manually oiled....again I like that allot. Does this machine have a safety clutch of any kind like the old Singer 111w and 211w machines ? Any feedback on the Cowboy 7335 would be very much appreciated as I'm assuming it is very similar in many respects. I've been looking for a lighter duty cylinder arm with triple feed and the moving binder is an amazing bonus/find. I'm also not yet able to find a youtube video showing the use of the binder just the general machine. It can't be that complicated but a video would be nice. Best regards, Mike

OK some background on the 269w. First I wanted to get a 69-8 for vintage reason(s) below. I have a mechanic that can work on the 269w's but it has been many years since he touched one. I'm fairly certain I can get parts for simple things on the 269w. We have a new LK-1900BHS but it is in our studio adjoining the house and all I have to do is look at the CCTV as well as out the window to see it there. We have a dog on other side and double roll up/heavy iron lockable doors. Our production line is a different story. The one down below is screened for great ventilation (and easy theft). I'd rather take a chance on a 269w and can get them for around 300USD in working condition which is around 1/10th the price of a new 1900bhs. Also, we have quite a bit of vintage machines (one of the reasons the 69 class such as 69-8 was my first choice). The 69w is unobtanium here. 1850s are everywhere here and I won't touch them because I've been told by the mechanic what a headache they are. Alignment of the 269w is the real problem and requires a wizard level skill set that can follow the 27 page essential alignment guide without a single deviation to exact steps. I don't have such an alignment guide for the 1850. This will just be for pants, not rigging, and likely anything special will be done in the studio on the 1900bhs where it sits safe and secure. The 69 class looks to me much slower but I'm just guessing much easier to maintain as long as parts can be had but that is just a guess. Same mechanic can align a Reece 101 and 104 keyhole with blindfolds on practically....it is nothing short of amazing to see the magic he works when in action. I'm willing to go with a 42 stitch with smaller thread and needle but also 28 would work. Best regards, Mike

HI Group, Understand old thread and old machine :-) The old machine part I like along with it's old school performance :-) We now have a 16-88, 16-188, 16u-288 (this one was amazingly new old stock in a warehouse of an old Singer dealer overseas that is liquidating and there is one more I'll eventually buy some day). BTW I got the new old stock 16u-288 for equivalent in $360 dollars. It even came with the mfg. plastic bag of accessories (bobbins extra Singer needles etc.) Posting again to ask this question. Has anyone ever tried a drop down roller guide on these? I have one installed on one of our 112w's and the sewer was amazed by it. I'm starting to think I need to get a complete set of different feet as I have seen auctions where upholstery shop had them likely an estate sale and the sewer had the full set of feet. My guess is the full set of feet will make a huge difference and if I can figure out a drop down roller foot all the better. Not sure how well a plain edge guide would work but yet another possibility. Everyone here wants to keep gravitating to the Juki DLN-5410 single needle feed. We also have a large herd of Juki 415's. There is stuff that these single needle feed will just plain not sew well and recently one broke my needle plate (new) and bent a needle but no damage to the hook trying to make the 5410 "sew" beyond it's abilities with canvas (was pushing the material). Really good sewer but not a good solution obviously. I demonstrated to him the 16-188 sewed it just fine but I suspect he wants and doesn't realize he needs some extra tools in the 88 class walking feet machines we have here. With practice there is no reason why he can't sew a perfectly straight line on the 88's. So if anyone in this group has the 88, 188, 288 "u" what would be there first priority beyond the stock feet without any guide ? Since we are soon to have a 4th of these likely (the second 288 "U") I want to set them up so people will gravitate towards them instead of away for sewing canvas and upholstery type work. Best regards, Mike

Hi NylonRigging, Many thanks for the reply. I have multiple sources I can get a 269w from in country. I was just told the cam is solid fiber? I also saw a different forum where the person posted and talked about replacing with a Camatron fiber cam. This is the giant one that is vertical on the side for a model 69 and horizontal under the bed for a 269. Actually, this surprised me. If true doe these wear out? I'm really shocked if it has a solid fiber cam and if so what is the "mileage" on one of these before too worn. Best regards, Mike

Hello group, I got a reply directly back from an email info request I sent out yesterday so am sharing what I found. The 469u was only made for a short time and not common in USA. The 269 series was made for a long time with parts available both generic and original it seems. The "un official" Singer adjustment manual that is 27 pages long is the real ticket to owning and maintaining the machine it seems and must be followed exactly (I've now heard this from two sources). The kind gent who took the time responding has told me he has converted several machines to air lift negating the issue with fatigue when used for long periods of time. So, I'm sold.....it'll be 269's with our single and exceptionally expensive lk1900bhs that can do programmable tacking. It will be worthwhile to learn the adjustments of the 269 since I'm not high volume and cannot justify the new purchase of a second lk1900. Best regards, Mike

Hi Constabulary, Sorry for the late reply. No...my plan is to hoard them and use them for our sewing biz here. Can't go wrong with a needle feed Juki is my take on it if used within it's intended range of uses. We have already built 22 tables and will be building more. We have 18 pieces of Singer 212u that I got from the same source and needed extensive rebuild. Tables are using commercially available tops out of China with the formica that has the ruler printed on it. Base is 1.5mm thick plus galvanized square tubing full weld with stainless electrode and what they call "checker plate" 1.5 mm stainless sheet metal. It is basically a stamped sheet metal that looks like diamond plate but can be bought for around 120 dollars for a 4ft x 8ft piece. We make our own foot pedals out of same checker plate (stamped diamond plate) with solid stainless small round bar and flat bar for the other portions. Epoxy primer and epoxy top coat (creme color) and it looks incredible. We got delivery of the first 9 of the 212u's and they are working on the other half which also includes a single 312u (more heavy duty I was told). The thing on these 415's is the wicking was all dried up. To replace my friend made a long drill bit by welding an existing to a piece of rod. Video looked like a dentist doing a root canal but it worked really well as can be seen with the dried out chunks of solid wicking coming out. Replaced all the hooks on the 415's as well. Due to higher cost he put regular high speed Juki hooks in. I've not tried it under heavy production yet but the gent who did the install and adjustment reports zero issues (and lots of money saved). Best regards, Mike

We have a 112w-140 and 139. I tried to convert the needle bar from a generic kit off that famous auction site and shipped from China and the kit did not fit on the 139. We were able to put dbx1 in the machine with existing/stock needle bar and adjust the needlebar height. If I remember correctly 135x17 was our first "want" but the shank was too big (although I may be getting mixed up with our 140 but don't think so....I do know we ended up using dbx1 in one of the machines because the smaller shank diameter. dbx1 is available in a large assortment of tips including leather points from a quick google search. Best regards, Mike

Hello Leatherworker group, I had a typo in the comment meant to say others saying 42spi shredding the belt loops. Again, my experience with some of the synthetics is a stitch count that high will perforate the material until it rips too easily but 100 percent cotton woven can handle it. I spoke again to the mechanic here. He worked for Wrangler and two other big brand jeans factories. He said that they were using a high stitch count but would put ticket 50 in the needle and ticket 120 (really small stuff) in the bobbin and that is how they would be able to do it. Some of theirs was 60spi with the smaller threads on denim belt loops. One of the reasons the 1850 has issues with thick material he said is that the foot pressure is not as high and wears out. I see new parts for the 1850 on that famous auction site and that assembly with the presser is one of them now available generic common. The 269w's have a much higher presser he said and manual (like a car with manual steering or brakes). If used it would be at a work station where someone is standing to pass the pants around and they always put a man on it and even then at the end of the day by 5pm always complaining because of the added physical activity. This is very high volume work obviously for hours or full day shift. So with all that said is the 469u really that good or does anyone know? I know the 269w will have exceptional high quality steel in it's parts but cannot speak for the durability of the 469u and if it has the same attributes as the 269w or not. I was told that the 469u and the 1850 are much different machines. I'm leaning towards the 469u but part of me wants to get the 269w's it is just a big unknown I'm hoping someone can clarify on. Oh, forgot to mention he has experience with the 1850's as well and said I'd have a headache if I bought one heavily used. This is the same thing I heard regarding the 1850's from the other mechanic (who was his mentor and passed on a couple years ago but he gave me a little bit of training). Best regards, Mike