DA669 complete binder set

[TonyGreen3455]

Hello! 

Can any of the masters explain to a newbie - how to bend approximately 1mm in thickness leather tape over the 16oz canvas on a DA669 ECO cylinder arm machine to get a pro result?

Q: 
apart from the binder itself what else do we need? 
in my particular case (DA669 ECO), what is a complete set consist of?

have been asking some sellers and they say different and sometimes controversial info - "you must have that&that&that.." or "you do not need to use specific foot, needle plate, feed dog to work together with the binder, just with your original parts", etc.

so, AFAIU: (according to Kwok Hing site)

1. Single raw fold binder. And it is to be attached to the moving arm. 2 items in basket.
a few times have seen recommendations to use a 135' binder (instead of 90') for easy leather moving - can anyone recommend a place where can I find it?

Moving arm rocking with feed dog - looks like needle plate and feed dog a must as well? 

Looks like these 3 (binder + moving arm + needle plate with feed dog) it is a minimum we need to set it up - am I correct?

2. presser feet - do we really need a special one or we can use a common one?

 

advice and suggestions you could give would be much appreciated

[Constabulary]

1 hour ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

2. presser feet - do we really need a special one or we can use a common one?

You need a presser foot set that suits the needle plate (throat plate) and feed dog.

1 hour ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

1. Single raw fold binder. And it is to be attached to the moving arm. 2 items in basket.
a few times have seen recommendations to use a 135' binder (instead of 90') for easy leather moving - can anyone recommend a place where can I find it?

Binding with 1mm thick leather is special - leather is causing more friction between the binder and the binding material (leather tape in your case) than f.i. nylon or cotton webbing does. You need a binder that suits your chosen biding material. And that is the main problem. Most (not all) binders you find online are not really meant for using thick leather as biding material but it depends on the binding material thickness (because of the friction). Right angle (90°) raw edge binder are causing more friction than 45° binder or inline binder. When the friction between binder and binding material is too high you will have a stretch effect and that will ruin your project. Maybe its worth considering thinner leather tape like 0.5mm or so.

You can try to find cheap binders online (trial and error) or check with attachment companies like Atlanta attachments (or similar Co´s in the UK) and they will make a proper binder that suits your chosen binding material and your machine but that will cost you big $.

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Constabulary

[kgg]

1 hour ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

how to bend approximately 1mm in thickness leather tape over the 16oz canvas

I agree with Constabulary. The 1mm thick leather is going to be to thick for most inexpensive binders you will find online. The surface of the leather will probably cause more friction then most other binding materials. Like Constabulary the best solution would have a binder custom made for your needs.

Another consideration to keep in mind is how and from where you are going to feed the binding tape into the binder. Are you going to let the tape just drape to the floor, coil the tape and be dragged on a flat surface or ????

You need to try and reduce the amount of drag friction to get the best results. Just having it being dragged into the binder is going to increase the load which will affect the feeding of tape to the needle. If you are going to be doing a lot of binding invest in proper horizontal binding tape platter or for smaller lengths a binding tape cup holder preferably one with a real bearing in the base to provide the least amount drag resistance giving you consistent feeding of the tape to the binder.

I use the regular inline inexpensive style binders on all my machines (flatbed or cylinder bed) but I think the thickest tape I use is about .5 or .6mm and use horizontal platters or binding tape cup holders.

kgg

 

[TonyGreen3455]

54 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

You need a presser foot set that suits the needle plate (throat plate) and feed dog.

Binding with 1mm thick leather is special - leather is causing more friction between the binder and the binding material (leather tape in your case) than f.i. nylon or cotton webbing does. You need a binder that suits your chosen biding material. And that is the main problem. Most (not all) binders you find online are not really meant for using thick leather as biding material but it depends on the binding material thickness (because of the friction). Right angle (90°) raw edge binder are causing more friction than 45° binder or inline binder. When the friction between binder and binding material is too high you will have a stretch effect and that will ruin your project. Maybe its worth considering thinner leather tape like 0.5mm or so.

noted, many thanks! 

You can try to find cheap binders online (trial and error) or check with attachment companies like Atlanta attachments (or similar Co´s in the UK) and they will make a proper binder that suits your chosen binding material and your machine but that will cost you big $.

will write to Atlanta attachments for sure. BTW - their binders are compatible with third parties moving arms/feet/needle plates etc.?

can you suggest anyone in the UK or EU?

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by TonyGreen3455

[TonyGreen3455]

10 minutes ago, kgg said:

I agree with Constabulary. The 1mm thick leather is going to be to thick for most inexpensive binders you will find online. The surface of the leather will probably cause more friction then most other binding materials. Like Constabulary the best solution would have a binder custom made for your needs.

Another consideration to keep in mind is how and from where you are going to feed the binding tape into the binder. Are you going to let the tape just drape to the floor, coil the tape and be dragged on a flat surface or ????

due to the binder fitting into the moving arm and the moving arm coming with a tape adjuster/holder - looks like the tape will not be loosed, but adjusted. 
can it be a problem? 
I mean - will it make an extra moving restriction?  

You need to try and reduce the amount of drag friction to get the best results. Just having it being dragged into the binder is going to increase the load which will affect the feeding of tape to the needle. If you are going to be doing a lot of binding invest in proper horizontal binding tape platter or for smaller lengths a binding tape cup holder preferably one with a real bearing in the base to provide the least amount drag resistance giving you consistent feeding of the tape to the binder.

I use the regular inline inexpensive style binders on all my machines (flatbed or cylinder bed) but I think the thickest tape I use is about .5 or .6mm and use horizontal platters or binding tape cup holders.

kgg

 

 

[Constabulary]

these Co´s are in Germany:

https://www.np-z.com/sonderbau

https://www.grau-apparatebau.de/produkte.html

BTW - Dürkopp Adler is offering attachments / special solutions too:

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/products/specialized-solutions

They have a catalogue:

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/fileadmin/dag/Media/Doc/Branches/additional_equipment_catalogue_2021.pdf

But I´m sure they offer other special solutions too but they wont be cheap

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Constabulary

[TonyGreen3455]

1 hour ago, Constabulary said:

these Co´s are in Germany:

https://www.np-z.com/sonderbau

https://www.grau-apparatebau.de/produkte.html

BTW - Dürkopp Adler is offering attachments / special solutions too:

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/products/specialized-solutions

They have a catalogue:

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/fileadmin/dag/Media/Doc/Branches/additional_equipment_catalogue_2021.pdf

But I´m sure they offer other special solutions too but they wont be cheap

 

done, letters posted.
many thanks for your help!

[kgg]

1 hour ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

the moving arm coming with a tape adjuster/holder - looks like the tape will not be loosed, but adjusted.

The tape guides on some binders serve two basic purposes. 1) to guide the tape to the entrance of the binder at the correct angle and 2) add / reduce back tension.

If a normal coil or length of binding tape weights XXX and you have to lift or drag that total amount to the guides it is going to add extra and inconsistent drag before the binder. The object as I see it is to keep the drag before the binder to a minimum by using horizontal platters or holders with real bearings.

kgg

[TonyGreen3455]

7 hours ago, kgg said:

The tape guides on some binders serve two basic purposes. 1) to guide the tape to the entrance of the binder at the correct angle and 2) add / reduce back tension.

If a normal coil or length of binding tape weights XXX and you have to lift or drag that total amount to the guides it is going to add extra and inconsistent drag before the binder. The object as I see it is to keep the drag before the binder to a minimum by using horizontal platters or holders with real bearings.

kgg

holders with real bearings - omg! they are real?

[kgg]

2 hours ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

holders with real bearings - omg! they are real?

A lot of binding tape spool holders that hold the tape in either the horizontal or vertical position do NOT have bearings to help reduce drag and a lot don't have spool centering insets to center the spool of tape on the device.

kgg

 

[Constabulary]

my spool holder has no bearings and is not causing drag issues. It´s an old ADLER all metal made model and the spool core is sitting on a tube that spins around plain round shaft. Never tried something else as it always worked well.

College Sewing in the UK has some tape racks:

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/accessories/chair-stands-table-tops/tape-racks

Maybe worth checking with them because of binders. Maybe they know a source in the UK for custom made binders or can even offer one that suits your needs (don´t know).

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/folders-attachments

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Constabulary

[TonyGreen3455]

regarding letters:
Atlanta
they were asked to provide examples of base material and binding tape as well. it is not a problem, but... due to we make bags to order, our range changing almost weekly.
so, my common sense tells me that I need to post the heaviest materials I can use for it, and probably light stuff (the same width) will go through the same binder easily - am I right?
I can order 1 only - what you would suggest? 

Germany and Durkopp - still in progress
College Sewing UK - a few letters sent, no answer so far... a bit strange.

I found Italy-made binders here: https://armastore.eu/cf-1507-raw-edge-tape-binder-6-mm - is it worth it?

 

regarding spool holders - looks like the longest length we can use is around 1.5m only - I can not see any reason to buy it. 

[kgg]

40 minutes ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

regarding spool holders - looks like the longest length we can use is around 1.5m only - I can not see any reason to buy it. 

The advantage of a spool holder it allows you take advantage of the lower per meter cost vs small flats. In the long run it is a lot cheaper to buy say a 304 mm (12 in ) diameter spool holding 150 meters of binding tape then a 4m flat of binding tape and you wind up with less wastage. On short runs once you are finished just pin the end to the spool and store for latter use rather them throwing out the unused piece left over from the flat.

 

57 minutes ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

my common sense tells me that I need to post the heaviest materials I can use for it, and probably light stuff (the same width) will go through the same binder easily - am I right?
I can order 1 only - what you would suggest? 

Yes the thinner binding tape will go through easily but there lays the problem. If you put a thin binding tape say .2 mm through a binder that is custom made for 1mm tape it may have to much free space to wonder around and have a tendency to slide about inside the folder which may affect how it feeds over the edge of the material.

I think you need at least two binders one to handle the 1mm thick tape and another one that can handle the typical thickness size of binding tapes you use. 

1 hour ago, TonyGreen3455 said:

I found Italy-made binders here: https://armastore.eu/cf-1507-raw-edge-tape-binder-6-mm - is it worth it?

The cost is about €99.00 or $133 CAD or $104 USD that to me is expensive. For the price of one of those binders I can buy 6 standard binders. I do have some of those style binders from when I bought all the new old stock binders from a company going out of business last year. I will check and see what sizes I have. To cost will be awful lot cheaper.

kgg

[TonyGreen3455]

9 hours ago, kgg said:

The advantage of a spool holder it allows you take advantage of the lower per meter cost vs small flats. In the long run it is a lot cheaper to buy say a 304 mm (12 in ) diameter spool holding 150 meters of binding tape then a 4m flat of binding tape and you wind up with less wastage. On short runs once you are finished just pin the end to the spool and store for latter use rather them throwing out the unused piece left over from the flat.

for fabric ribbon it is a must, but I can't imagine how to bend and hold in the same spiral shape 1.5m leather tape - imho - it always will try to go out of control, etc.  
may be tape holders/platform with a small border can help on it? 

 

Yes the thinner binding tape will go through easily but there lays the problem. If you put a thin binding tape say .2 mm through a binder that is custom made for 1mm tape it may have to much free space to wonder around and have a tendency to slide about inside the folder which may affect how it feeds over the edge of the material.

I think you need at least two binders one to handle the 1mm thick tape and another one that can handle the typical thickness size of binding tapes you use. 

fully agree.

my plan - to buy a full set (binder, moving arm, needle plate, feet) from KH and on top of it - to order or buy a special made binder for heavy materials.

 

The cost is about €99.00 or $133 CAD or $104 USD that to me is expensive. For the price of one of those binders I can buy 6 standard binders. I do have some of those style binders from when I bought all the new old stock binders from a company going out of business last year. I will check and see what sizes I have. To cost will be awful lot cheaper.

kgg

 

[Constabulary]

keep in mind - the UK no longer is in the EU so for everything you import from the continent or elsewhere you have to pay 20% VAT + tax on top.

I don´t know the 669 but I assume the binder brackets are the same as for the 69

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/parts-by-machine/durkopp-adler-parts/durkopp-adler-69-parts?p=4

I would check with College Sewing, they sell KH binder and stuff as well. When the UK was in the EU I ordered everything from them (I´m in Germany).

When ever I had a question I was in touch with Justin  -->>  Justin[at]college-sewing.co.uk 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Constabulary

[TonyGreen3455]

8 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

keep in mind - the UK no longer is in the EU so for everything you import from the continent or elsewhere you have to pay 20% VAT + tax on top.

I don´t know the 669 but I assume the binder brackets are the same as for the 69

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/parts-by-machine/durkopp-adler-parts/durkopp-adler-69-parts?p=4

I would check with College Sewing, they sell KH binder and stuff as well. When the UK was in the EU I ordered everything from them (I´m in Germany).

When ever I had a question I was in touch with Justin  -->>  Justin[at]college-sewing.co.uk 

 

taxes are not only an issue now - many EU shops simply stop sending goods into the UK due to tax/custom headaches, etc. 

many thanks for the email, will try to get in touch directly.

 

 

[shoepatcher]

No  brackets different.  SAme as 867,868,869.

 

glenn

[TonyGreen3455]

thank you, Glenn

 

can anyone find a difference between these two (9$ difference in price) - it is from KH shop

both - for small-sized Cylinder Bed Machine,  For thin leather and plastic materials.

apart of brass/white metal - looks similar. 
is it because of brass? brass-better?

any ideas?

 

 

[TonyGreen3455]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:52 PM, TonyGreen3455 said:

thank you, Glenn

can anyone find a difference between these two (9$ difference in price) - it is from KH shop

both - for small-sized Cylinder Bed Machine,  For thin leather and plastic materials.

apart of brass/white metal - looks similar. 
is it because of brass? brass-better?

any ideas?

 

 

upd from KH

"the base bracket of KHF2 can be adjusted the position and removable, but the base bracket of KHF66 is fixed"

At the same time KHF2 looks budget and stamped from metal sheet instead of solid brass body of KHF66. 
Issue not in look only, but IMO brass corners can be easier handled and polished for a light movement of leather.

what would you prefer?

[kgg]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:52 PM, TonyGreen3455 said:

can anyone find a difference between these two (9$ difference in price)

As promised these are what I have found so far in this style of folder. The 32mm binder has a adjustable front binding tape guide and the small two hole 1" has a built in tape guide. If you are interested pm me. These are "new" old stock.

kgg

Edited June 13, 2022 by kgg
added a line

[Constabulary]

If I had too choose I would go with the nickle / chrome plated ones rather than pure brass because when leather is in contact with brass it can develop this nasty green waxy stuff (copper acetate). Not sure if it will (takes some time) but could be. Therefore I would choose the plated ones when working with leather binding tape. My 2 cents.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Constabulary