78-1 Singer Model 78-1. Bought frozen to get sewing.

[AlamoJoe2002]

I bought the frozen Singer Model 78-1. It could be a 78-3. I have no clue. I'm going to get it sewing two layers of 8 ounce veg tan. This is the jumping foot...not walking foot. MFG: Jan 1920. I oiled it generously with clear mineral. No badges, just ser#.

I forget how to resize pictures to attach.

Anyone familiar with this industrial machine.

 

[Wizcrafts]

There have been several discussions about this ancient sewing machine, here on Leatherworker.net.

• https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/90836-singer-78-1-vs-111w101/
• https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/54558-first-machine-singer-78-1-vs-singer-96k40/
• https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/55658-singer-78-3-what-do-you-know/
• https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/60038-singer-78-3-info/
• https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/80437-singer-78-3-leather-needles/

Finally, I found a YouTube video from a fellow who was selling a Singer 78-1. He gives a great description of the machine and demonstrates it sewing about a 1/4 inch thick stack of heavy suede with #138 thread.

Please note that these posts are from up to a decade ago and many of the parts mentioned are no longer available. Some of the website links in the posts are no longer valid either.

[AlamoJoe2002]

So I attempted to re-size the photo's. This machine is the product prior to the 111W walking foot. I think it's called a "jump foot." Any info is apprecieted. 

[AlamoJoe2002]

[AlamoJoe2002]

All,

Took a few tweeks using a chrombook and phone...I posted 4 pictures of the Singer 78-1. What got my attention was the three drop down components that comprise the jumping foot walking foot. 

I thank WizCrafts for assembling the links to discussions on this forum.

I found most of the manusls I need...is there a service manual on this machine? 

Joe

[AlamoJoe2002]

Singer 78-1 verses Consew 28. How thick will the Consew 28 sew? 

My research lead me to a youtube video. This Consew 28 looks very similar to the Singer 78-1. Is this the closest example I may find for compatable manuals? The old 1920 Singer Manuals don't have good parts diagrams.

 

[AlamoJoe2002]

Hello from Philadelphia!

I found the bobbin case and bobbin. The machine is 103 years old. Does it make sense to get a new bobin case and shuttle?

Would this be an assumed part to replace when dealing with vintage machines?

[AlamoJoe2002]

I'm thinking about sinking the intact vintage machine into a ultrasonic cleaner. I think my tank would require turning the Singer 78-1 onto its head then turned onto its tail.

Has anyone heard of a success or failure for this short cut cleaning system on a 103 year old Singer? Or...I will start a clean up campaign for a while.....Or I can use a shop vac and compressed air hose fitting and blow out and vac the crud with the pint of mineral oil soaking on the machine right now.

I can't believe I'm doing this. I started out making belts as gifts. Now I want to try to move a bit faster on sewing machine. I only hand sewed. I have never used a sewing machine in my life.

The quicker I get the dirt out is the quicker I get to sewing!

JOE

[DonInReno]

These always seemed like an interesting machine - being a needle feed design with no feed dogs.   Yours seems to have a little surface rust, however, when the needle and presser bars are still rust free that’s a good sign it won’t be too hard to get it rotating again.

There are some rules of thumb in sewing machine maintenance that are pretty universal:

Do no harm - it’s important to not break, bend, spindle or mutilate parts.  Many well intentioned people unfamiliar with sewing machines, damage something that is not easily replaced and turn an otherwise doable project into a door stop.

Many adjustments aren’t intuitive and attempting to change something without knowing what affect it will have has caused many working machines to be so out of whack they can’t form a stitch.  

Old original singer parts in good shape are almost always better quality than aftermarket replacement parts.  In general, if it’s not broke there’s no need to fix it.

Well fitting screwdrivers are essential to prevent stripped screw heads.   Some corroded or otherwise frozen screws can not be removed with a screwdriver alone and will need to be heated or impacted.

Four or five or six years ago I almost bought one of these, but an industrial sewing parts supplier said the timing belts were no longer available from any of their aftermarket sources - that may or may not have changed.

Be careful with compressed air if the parts are not being taken completely apart - not only will it clean off dirt, but it can push dirt into oil holes and other clean areas as well.

Acid baths do remove rust, but they also etch, sometimes deeply etch, otherwise smooth areas.   It’s easy to spot parts that have been soaked in vinegar or rust remover.  Same for electrolysis.

Personally, I wouldn’t try to dip a portion of a fully intact machine in an ultrasonic cleaner - dropping an industrial is the quickest way to damage it and the odds of a drop go way up with this.   Degreasers that work their way into bushings and cracks will corrode anything that can’t be flushed out completely.  Degreasers won’t remove rust.  Acids will remove rust, but corrode even worse than degreasers if not fully removed.

The only shortcut to cleaning up an industrial in rough shape is good old elbow grease.   Old military manuals often suggest kerosene to deep clean sewing machines, but WD-40 is mostly kerosene and works well - just be sure and follow up with sewing machine oil since WD isn’t a suitable lubricant.

Best of luck and we all enjoy seeing progress as you work through getting it sewing!

 

 

 

[Quade]

Quote

Acid baths do remove rust, but they also etch, sometimes deeply etch, otherwise smooth areas.   It’s easy to spot parts that have been soaked in vinegar or rust remover.  Same for electrolysis.

One of the things I liked about "Evaporust" is it seem to have no impact on non-rusty metal.  Rusty metal that was already pitted remained pitted.  Which is to be expected.  I dipped a majority of smaller parts on a 100 year old lathe into evaporust and it didn't change the clearances on non-rusty metal.  I just washed the residue off with soap and water, then oiled. 

You will have to re-coat everything with paint or powder coat. I love powder coat so that's what I used. 

I agree with the other things.  You should treat the parts on this machine as if they're irreplaceable.  All the common parts are easy to come buy but less common parts a hard to find. I've been looking for the arm that moves vibrating feet on my Singer 211 so I can remove the air cylinder hookup. So far I've not found one. 

This machine doesn't look that bad.  I'd probably remove the belt and find out where it's binding, in the top or bottom.   If it's out of adjustment, that can make it bind even if everything else is free to move.  For example, the feed dog might be bumping up against the limit of travel if they're out of adjustment.  You could flip it on its side and try turning the hand wheel back and forth. Maybe you can see if something is running out of travel. 

[DonInReno]

10 hours ago, Quade said:

One of the things I liked about "Evaporust" is it seem to have no impact on non-rusty metal.

I should try evaporust again - maybe the pits were already there and I misjudged what was going on.

Once upon a time there was a guy who enjoyed buying rusted and locked up old Singers at auctions - he liked electrolysis and said hooking up the wire on the shaft that was frozen would get any rusted shaft to turn.

[Quade]

I'm always leery of running electricity through bearings. Either with welding or other processes.  I just worry there will be some arcing that pits the races.   

What locks up on these machines? I imagine most have a ball bearing near the hand wheel and lower belt gear.  Is it the bushings that freeze up on the shafts? 

[AlamoJoe2002]

The bottom rod running from pulley to the head works was stuck. Also the three vertical foot and needle shafts were stuck. With a pint of mineral oil, time and working the movement back and forth, it eventually started moving. I need a new leather treadle belt...then I will give it motorized power. Not sure what follows.

[rlevine]

Another vote for Evaporust. 

A few caveats when using it:

• There may be some etching or metal removal, contrary to expectations that part size isn't changed. That expectation is almost always met, but realize that if the part is rusted, the oxidation is consuming the metal of the part surface. Chelating the oxide and removing it takes something away. In most situations you won't be able to tell or it won't matter, as tolerances in most parts will still be within a useful range. (And yes, Virginia, Evaporust is a chelating solution. Molasses has a chelating effect but it's sloooow. Chelating agents will _stop_ when the oxide is converted. Acids and electrolysis will remove unoxidized metal and don't stop. Electrolysis can deal with severe rust that's too much for Evaporust, but takes time to set up and needs to be watched, so the result should be worth the time.)
• Always submerge parts completely, if you're leaving a part in Evaporust for any amount of time. There can be a visible line left on a part at the liquid/air boundary. I've seen both black chelated residue at the line, with none above, or actual etching on some metals. Both can be a pain to recover from. 
• Evaporust will usually leave painted surfaces alone, unless the finish can absorb it or there is oxidation under the paint at the edges. Test it first. Japanned finishes may not like it. 
• Don't leave parts in the juice for more than an hour or two without checking on them. They'll probably be fine, but I'll miss submerging a part fully, or there will be some galvanized stuff that I missed, so rescuing them sooner rather than later is always nice.
• The temptation is to take the parts from the Evaporust container and drop them into water to clean them off. Don't; they'll turn black. Clean them one by one. (Returning the parts to the Evaporust will remove most of the black, at least enough to make you think you ducked a bullet.)
• Don't throw away the used solution. The counter to the complaints about price are that the stuff can last for years if decanted back into its bottle or kept in a sealed tub.

I'll throw in some of the techniques I use when working on machines, since I couldn't find much advice in one place when I started trying to resurrect rusty things. (And yes, these are only my opinions, and what I've found that works for me. YMMV.)

• I keep some 600-grit wet/dray paper handy when using Evaporust; having a sheet flat on a surface using Evaporust as a lubricant can quickly clean up flat surfaces on parts, and small pieces of paper can be used for cleaning up non-flat bits. A few pieces end up in the tub, and I'll just grab one as I pull parts out.
• Ace hardware sells small brass wire brushes in 3-packs. I'll pretty much kill one for a machine restoration.
• Small screwdrivers and probes and a stack of micro-fiber cloths are my go-to's for cleaning parts. I have a particular liking for Wiha's 3.5mm flat screwdrivers, so there are lots of them scattered around machines in the shop, and I usually end up using one to clean and remove parts. (Yes, I'm disrespecting the tools. But they work.)
• For general degreasing and cleaning, since I don't like working with kerosine, I use Rustoleum's Krud Kutter, either straight from the spray bottle, or cut 50/50 with water in a tub. Again, brass wire brushes or a small bristle brush. Krud Kutter will affect some painted or japanned finishes. Test it, don't let the concentrate sit on paint.
• Rustoleum's rust converter is great for a wipe-down to remove flash rust on parts, but it's vicious, poisonous stuff that doesn't stop working until it's rinsed.
• The better alternative I've found is to pull a part from the Evaporust, clean it up, wipe it down if it's small or rinse in warm water and wipe, and then put it in a tray with a piece of paper towel in the bottom and hit the parts with a quick shot of LPS1 lubricant to displace any water and keep them shiny until I get back to them.
• Johnson's paste wax is a decent treatment for exposed metal surfaces that need to be slippy for fabric or other processes that don't like oil or grease. Never, never, never use microcrystalline wax, as it can't be removed without serious abrasion or hot xylene, which you don't want to deal with.
• Get some good screwdrivers, or grind your cheap ones to improve them. A Chapman set is a great start, or look for electrician's tools; for some reason they're often hollow ground.

Again, only my $0.02, but I wish had some cogent advice about this stuff when I started taking machines apart. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by rlevine

[DonInReno]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:48 AM, Quade said:

What locks up on these machines? I imagine most have a ball bearing near the hand wheel and lower belt gear.  Is it the bushings that freeze up on the shafts?

These are pretty simple machines, but the needle and presser bars are somewhat exposed along with bushing nearest the hook.

Luckily many sewing machines that are locked are only suffering from old oil that has hardened throughout and eventually softens up with a little solvent or even new oil.

Rusted machines on the other hand suffer the most in the areas water can get to.   One of my projects sat outside for a few months before it was sold and the bushings with direct paths for liquid water are the most corroded, while others exposed to high humidity and no liquid water get rusty all over and under.  

[shaggyrun]

Alamo joe, did you get your 78-1 running? I was gifted my grandmother's old upholestry machine turns out it is a 78-1 that was made in 1920 in new jersey. After 2 days I was able to get the machine turning over again.  It had been stored in a barn for about 50 years. I used kroil and it really helped getting things going.  My bottom bobbin shaft was the biggest problem. I was able to flip the machine on is side spray the bottom shaft down really good with kroil and then use vice grips to clamp on the shaft and slowly work it back abd forth not putting to much pressure on anything. After a few minutes it break loose and freed up.  

I don't know if that will help you but I have mine working and it's truly a beast and the stitch quality is better then my newer machine.