Nail Carving?

[CharleyS]

Hi,  this is my first post. I’m just getting into leather work.  I’ve done some in the past but now that I’m retired I really want to look into it much deeper.  I am into historical work. Mostly western as well as mountain man eras. I saw a slim Jim holster on River Junction Trading Company site that caught my eye. Its states it is nail carved. I really like the look but what is nail carving?  I am looking forward to learning a lot more.   Thank you. Charley

[fredk]

I suspect that nail carving is taking ordinary woodwork nails and filing them into fancy profiles for doing the tooling

I seem to remember that a few other leather workers/crafters on here have done just that

[billybopp]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

I suspect that nail carving is taking ordinary woodwork nails and filing them into fancy profiles for doing the tooling

I seem to remember that a few other leather workers/crafters on here have done just that

You're probably right.  Some leather shops "back in the day" may have had dedicated tools for tooling, but I have no doubt that folks decorated their leather - maybe around a campfire at night when on the trail or whatever.

I remember reading that Al Stohlman did some of that sort of thing.  He served in WWII and did some leatherwork then - and when he returned home didn't have access, or couldn't afford, proper tools so he made his own from nails, screws, bolts - whatever could be found.

- Bill

[CharleyS]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

I suspect that nail carving is taking ordinary woodwork nails and filing them into fancy profiles for doing the tooling

I seem to remember that a few other leather workers/crafters on here have done just that

That’s kind of what I thought. The original holster shown looked very subtle but the fact it’s probably 150 years old might add to that. The reproduction is much more defined. Thanks for your thoughts on it. 

[bruce johnson]

I have heard the term a couple times recently, and have never really found an original historical source for "nail carved". If anyone has the history lesson on it I'd sure appreciate it. The couple examples I've been sent are just like this holster. Basically a simple outline only free-flowing design with no middle detailing. Could have been traced on with a nail. I don't see a stamp used in this one. A nail, tickler, stylus, anything blunt could potentially make this design. 

[CharleyS]

24 minutes ago, bruce johnson said:

I have heard the term a couple times recently, and have never really found an original historical source for "nail carved". If anyone has the history lesson on it I'd sure appreciate it. The couple examples I've been sent are just like this holster. Basically a simple outline only free-flowing design with no middle detailing. Could have been traced on with a nail. I don't see a stamp used in this one. A nail, tickler, stylus, anything blunt could potentially make this design. 

I’d love to learn more too. It has simple lines but has a very traditional design to it. My imagination is of a 49er relaxing in his camp marking up his holster. Probably not but it’s a cool image. I’m going to make a Slim Jim holster and see if I can do something similar. If a mail was used to do the original it was a cut nail. Or called a square nail. They usually had blunt ends. 

[chuck123wapati]

I've heard the term used but for wood as well as leather in "FOLK" art. In this case though its just used more as a sales gimmick.

Poor folks back in the day made most of their tools for any craft, there wasn't any to be bought nor the money to buy them. So they made them. And then  after making the tools. they sat around when unoccupied , night , winter , storms etc and made stuff, there was no tv , radio etc to bide the time. And their designs came from the same place their own minds!!!

I've made quite a few of mine that i couldn't afford or wanted to spend what they thought it was worth. If you do go this route use stainless as much as possible. And i cant wait to see what you come up with. Good luck my friend!!!!

[Tugadude]

Here's something on the topic as it relates to Al Stohlman:  Taken from the now defunct  International Internet Leathercrafters Guild

Al Stohlman: August 15, 1919 - March 6, 1998
Al Stohlman's introduction to working with leather began in 1943 in the jungles of New Guinea during World War II. Some buddies were doing leatherwork. The only tools were nails, shaped into various forms to press the designs in by hand. Man has been linked with leather for centuries using it for clothing, shelter, tools, etc. Modern times have produced a great variety of tanned leather that can be used for anything imaginable. Al Stohlman has devoted most of his life to leather, constantly seeking ways to improve his work and develop new techniques. The results of his extensive research are published in numerous instructional books which have been - and still are - a guide and a source of inspiration for generations of leatherworkers all over the world.

[Tugadude]

And here's a cool thread from here:

 

[Tugadude]

There are multiple videos on YouTube where folks take various sized nails and make leather stamps out of them.  Some look very nice.

[bruce johnson]

     I am going to politely disagree with a few posts here. There is no stamping on this piece. It was not made from nails made into stamps. It was drawn on with a blunt tip tool. Blow up the picture sizes and that is pretty obvious. This piece you referred to has been antiqued or had HiLiter used to get the darkened effects in the tickled lines. In the older era, it could have been drawn on with a lightly heated tool to burnish the design (not hot enough to scorch) or just drawn on damp leather and over time the lines filled with dirt and grime to pop the design. 

I would really like to get some background on the term "nail carving". I am wondering how historic that term is and am reaching out to some reproduction customers for info. I would bet the previous couple inquiries I have had regarding "nail carving" may have all come from this one page or whoever makes these holsters. I just don't have a lot of holster references to backtrack through. There is a book called "Packing Iron" that shows a lot of holsters but mine is out on loan. My mind is trying to draw a parallel with the accepted term of "finger carving" - free handed designs using just a swivel knife and no stamps. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, bruce johnson said:

     I am going to politely disagree with a few posts here. There is no stamping on this piece. It was not made from nails made into stamps. It was drawn on with a blunt tip tool. Blow up the picture sizes and that is pretty obvious. This piece you referred to has been antiqued or had HiLiter used to get the darkened effects in the tickled lines. In the older era, it could have been drawn on with a lightly heated tool to burnish the design (not hot enough to scorch) or just drawn on damp leather and over time the lines filled with dirt and grime to pop the design. 

I would really like to get some background on the term "nail carving". I am wondering how historic that term is and am reaching out to some reproduction customers for info. I would bet the previous couple inquiries I have had regarding "nail carving" may have all come from this one page or whoever makes these holsters. I just don't have a lot of holster references to backtrack through. There is a book called "Packing Iron" that shows a lot of holsters but mine is out on loan. My mind is trying to draw a parallel with the accepted term of "finger carving" - free handed designs using just a swivel knife and no stamps. 

In that instance its used as a buzzword just to sell a holster. Period. you are right it wasn't stamped with nails, but its a copy of one that may have been.

 I've heard the term used in folk art, basically it came from people using whatever metal they could scrounge to create tools for their project nails being the most common, Scrimshaw for example is nail art, so is some metal engraving. the old tin lanterns punched with nails and made from cans is another.  i have a great piece of nail art, my dad after ww2 was a rough neck, he made a graver out of a nail to tool his aluminum hardhat with all his travels, pictures and such. Leather work was no different holsters, saddles and about any leather was ornamented at some point by people with the very basic of skills and tools. Its all under the heading of folk art.  You want to see it go to a museum only the best examples go in books. I've seen a ton of it in museums, i love that book but its only a few holsters out of hundreds of thousands so limited in its knowledge base.

[CharleyS]

3 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

     I am going to politely disagree with a few posts here. There is no stamping on this piece. It was not made from nails made into stamps. It was drawn on with a blunt tip tool. Blow up the picture sizes and that is pretty obvious. This piece you referred to has been antiqued or had HiLiter used to get the darkened effects in the tickled lines. In the older era, it could have been drawn on with a lightly heated tool to burnish the design (not hot enough to scorch) or just drawn on damp leather and over time the lines filled with dirt and grime to pop the design. 

I would really like to get some background on the term "nail carving". I am wondering how historic that term is and am reaching out to some reproduction customers for info. I would bet the previous couple inquiries I have had regarding "nail carving" may have all come from this one page or whoever makes these holsters. I just don't have a lot of holster references to backtrack through. There is a book called "Packing Iron" that shows a lot of holsters but mine is out on loan. My mind is trying to draw a parallel with the accepted term of "finger carving" - free handed designs using just a swivel knife and no stamps. 

There is a picture of the original holster that shows a carving, not stamped, that they reproduced.  The one I referenced is obviously a copy, but the reason I asked was mostly about the term of using nails to carve leather. As I said if it’s truly from the correct period and "nails" were used they would have been square nails which did not have sharp points.  I’m interested in the folk art side as references by Chuck123wapiti.  The only decorative work I’ve done on leather was to press and burnish the leather leaving a somewhat embossed design. It’s crude work but I was only 10 at the time.  But thinking back on it now I like the idea of using what is at hand to do these kinds of work, and a square nail has some appeal to me. Im thinking the original design was not really carved in the traditional sense, but deeply scratched in and burnished to deepen it.

I too have a copy of "Packing Iron" that I need to get back from a friend and go through it again.  Thanks for your thoughts. 

[chuck123wapati]

14 minutes ago, CharleyS said:

There is a picture of the original holster that shows a carving, not stamped, that they reproduced.  The one I referenced is obviously a copy, but the reason I asked was mostly about the term of using nails to carve leather. As I said if it’s truly from the correct period and "nails" were used they would have been square nails which did not have sharp points.  I’m interested in the folk art side as references by Chuck123wapiti.  The only decorative work I’ve done on leather was to press and burnish the leather leaving a somewhat embossed design. It’s crude work but I was only 10 at the time.  But thinking back on it now I like the idea of using what is at hand to do these kinds of work, and a square nail has some appeal to me. Im thinking the original design was not really carved in the traditional sense, but deeply scratched in and burnished to deepen it.

I too have a copy of "Packing Iron" that I need to get back from a friend and go through it again.  Thanks for your thoughts. 

nails were only square until they took a file to them lol. they made many different tools from the raw stock including sewing awls. po folk got po ways but they got the same grey matter as rich folks.

[CharleyS]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

nails were only square until they took a file to them lol. they made many different tools from the raw stock including sewing awls. po folk got po ways but they got the same grey matter as rich folks.

Only lack of imagination holds folks back.  I have a rosewood foreplane that my great grandfather made and used in the 1880s and 1890s doing custom stairs in the Dakotas. He made his own because he couldn’t find one he needed in the hardware stores.  There is always a way to find the right tool.  

[fredk]

Whilst you lot are waiting for your books to come back I have my copy of PI handy.  I'll have a look

[YinTx]

Lots of references to "decorated" "incised" "carved"  "tooled" etc., but nothing I have found yet about nail carving in "Packing Iron" that I can find.

 

[CharleyS]

Back to what Bruce said, I can see the similarities to “finger carving”.  I looked that up today and my highly uneducated guess is that it’s the same principle just that the antique I mentioned was probably just done with crude tools like a nail, compared to a swivel knife.   Thanks everyone for great input. I need to do more research lol. 

[billybopp]

8 hours ago, CharleyS said:

Back to what Bruce said, I can see the similarities to “finger carving”.  I looked that up today and my highly uneducated guess is that it’s the same principle just that the antique I mentioned was probably just done with crude tools like a nail, compared to a swivel knife.   Thanks everyone for great input. I need to do more research lol. 

Several years ago, Serge Volken did a video on incision knife carving on YouTube that was fairly interesting.   

- Bill

[fredk]

I now wonder if 'Nail Carved' is a buzz phrase to sell the item and the phrase is based on just a couple of lines in Al Stohlman's bio

I've no doubt that cowboys, settlers, farm workers, soldiers, anyone who had personal plain leather items spent time carving designs into that leather in their spare time and used whatever they had to hand, nails, knives, bullet shell cases. Archaeological finds are full of items where man left his personal mark, from neolithic stone markers carved with dots & spirals, medieval castles with game board designs carved on flat window stones, an ancient holy site with a medieval monk's carving on a stone near a doorway translated as 'Brother xxx was here (and the date)'

When I was young (yes, I was once) I used to do wood chip carving. I couldn't afford proper carving chisels so I reshaped and sharpened old screwdrivers which I scrounged off friends' parents. Someone always has an old screwdriver somewhere     Would that now be called 'Screwdriver Carved' ?

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by fredk

[chuck123wapati]

found this in Al Stohlman bio on wikipedia for what its worth. Al did the same thing as anyone of the era, made what they couldn't buy out of the cheapest thing they could find.

 

 "He and a few friends used pocket knives to carve the leather and created rudimentary tools out of nails shaped into various forms.^["

[CharleyS]

2 hours ago, fredk said:

I now wonder if 'Nail Carved' is a buzz phrase to sell the item and the phrase is based on just a couple of lines in Al Stohlman's bio

I've no doubt that cowboys, settlers, farm workers, soldiers, anyone who had personal plain leather items spent time carving designs into that leather in their spare time and used whatever they had to hand, nails, knives, bullet shell cases. Archaeological finds are full of items where man left his personal mark, from neolithic stone markers carved with dots & spirals, medieval castles with game board designs carved on flat window stones, an ancient holy site with a medieval monk's carving on a stone near a doorway translated as 'Brother xxx was here (and the date)'

When I was young (yes, I was once) I used to do wood chip carving. I couldn't afford proper carving chisels so I reshaped and sharpened old screwdrivers which I scrounged off friends' parents. Someone always has an old screwdriver somewhere     Would that now be called 'Screwdriver Carved' ?

 

Well if it is a marketing ploy it worked on me lol. No I’m not going to buy one of theirs, but it got my mind wandering and looking at everything in my wood shop for how I can use it on leather.  Screwdrivers would work great on leather. Great idea lol

[DwightT]

I know that I'm late to the conversation, but I can remember way back when I was in elementary school and first started learning about the concept of leather carving, I wandered into my grandfather's shop and marveling at all of his leather carving tools.  I distinctly remember a subset of those tools that appeared to my novice eye to have been fashioned from from various nails.  Stupid me I didn't know enough at the time to even think to ask where those tools came from, but knowing him I always assumed that he had made them to meet his needs at the time.  He was an old fashioned farmer / rancher and was known to "get er done" with whatever he had at hand.  Sadly when I inherited his tools many years later those nail tools were not among the collection and I have no idea as to what happened to them.  I guess those tools could be included under the term "Nail Carving"?

    /dwight

[fredk]

Not leather work; a remembrance and it may not be totally accurate. My paternal grandfather served in a US artillery regiment in WW1. He told my father that in their spare time some of his friends used  to refashion used artillery shell cases using the horse and guns maintenance tools and they 'engraved' the brass shell cases using horse shoe nails. This 'tench art' was posted home to family and friends and some for selling. The makers got more money for the 'engraved' items than for the plain ones

[billybopp]

2 hours ago, fredk said:

Not leather work; a remembrance and it may not be totally accurate. My paternal grandfather served in a US artillery regiment in WW1. He told my father that in their spare time some of his friends used  to refashion used artillery shell cases using the horse and guns maintenance tools and they 'engraved' the brass shell cases using horse shoe nails. This 'tench art' was posted home to family and friends and some for selling. The makers got more money for the 'engraved' items than for the plain ones

I've seen a couple of those shells in the Smithsonian.  They're really cool!

- Bill