A Vinegaroon Experiment in Progress

[Gosut]

  On 4/9/2023 at 8:56 AM, Wepster said:

Again, this may or may be helpful........cleaning vinegar has about 9% acid, and you can buy concentrate  - I got some on Amazon    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091FZRT1X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

plain old white vinegar is mostly water, as you noted only 4 or 5% acid.

 

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Had thought about a higher concentration. White vinegar at 5% is easily available locally.

[chuck123wapati]

  On 4/9/2023 at 4:26 PM, Gosut said:

Had thought about a higher concentration. White vinegar at 5% is easily available locally.

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and more acid in your leather! quit jackin with it let it work a couple weeks  and go enjoy Easter my friend.

[Gosut]

The idea is that, in theory, if there's enough iron to combine with acetic acid, it should reduce the amount of acetic acid remaining in the solution to nothing. That's in theory. Actual practice is something different, though, and I don't know if this setup will result in all the acetic acid combining with iron. Likely not. I should have measured the vinegar as I poured it in, both to make sure I had the right amount and to make sure I had no air pockets in the steel wool. Since I had to add vinegar to make up the amount lost, as an experiment this is already a failure in that I won't know if it's possible to completely combine iron with acetic acid with such a set-up.

Started wondering just how much hydrogen this should yield. By the formula, it takes 2 moles of acetic acid to yield 1 mole hydrogen. If there's 100g acetic acid in 2 liters of 5% acidity white vinegar, and the molar mass of acetic acid is 60.052g, then 100/(2X60.052) = 0.833 moles hydrogen. Hydrogen has an atomic weight of 1.00784, so H2 should have an atomic weight of 2.0157. 2.0157 x 0.833 = 1.679g hydrogen. Hydrogen has a density of 0.8988g/liter at normal temperature and pressure,, so 1.679 / 0.08988 = 18.687 liters hydrogen. If this calculation is correct (big if), that's a lot of hydrogen. Now I don't know if the displaced vinegar Friday was due to air trapped in the steel wool when it put it in the bottle or from the reaction.

If correct, though, that yield of hydrogen shows why it's so important to allow the iron and vinegar mixture to vent. 

 

[Gosut]

Update:

The vinegar has dropped slightly in the neck of the bottle, with no signs of leaks. That had me wondering how much drop would I see from the reaction. What follows is horribly slip-shod because I've forgotten the particulars about solutions. I'm going to have to break out an old chemistry text.

My reasoning, slipshod as it is, is that the 46g iron that I used for calculations has a volume of 5.905 ml. Added to 2000ml of vinegar gives 2005.905 ml. The 100 g of acetic acid in the 2000 ml vinegar  would be 95.829ml. So, 2000 - 95.829 = 1904.171ml water.

If all the iron combined with acetic acid, that would give 144.865g ferrous acetate, which would have a volume of 83.544 ml. Added to 1904.171 = 1987.715 ml. 2005.905 - 1987.715 = 18.19ml  drop in the vinegar.

Again, note I've forgotten what little I knew about solutions, so these calculations may not be correct. It does look like my goal of keeping a minimal surface area exposed to air will mean topping it off more. I've already messed up this part of the experiment by adding vinegar to fill up the voids, so the result is going to contain more acetic acid than I hopped. OTOH, so far the liquid is clear.

[Littlef]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:32 AM, Gosut said:

Update:

The vinegar has dropped slightly in the neck of the bottle, with no signs of leaks. That had me wondering how much drop would I see from the reaction. What follows is horribly slip-shod because I've forgotten the particulars about solutions. I'm going to have to break out an old chemistry text.

My reasoning, slipshod as it is, is that the 46g iron that I used for calculations has a volume of 5.905 ml. Added to 2000ml of vinegar gives 2005.905 ml. The 100 g of acetic acid in the 2000 ml vinegar  would be 95.829ml. So, 2000 - 95.829 = 1904.171ml water.

If all the iron combined with acetic acid, that would give 144.865g ferrous acetate, which would have a volume of 83.544 ml. Added to 1904.171 = 1987.715 ml. 2005.905 - 1987.715 = 18.19ml  drop in the vinegar.

Again, note I've forgotten what little I knew about solutions, so these calculations may not be correct. It does look like my goal of keeping a minimal surface area exposed to air will mean topping it off more. I've already messed up this part of the experiment by adding vinegar to fill up the voids, so the result is going to contain more acetic acid than I hopped. OTOH, so far the liquid is clear.

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I think you're putting way more thought behind this, than is necessary.  I just did a vinegaroon belt pouch for round balls.  I filled a pickle jar with vinegar, and jammed 2 4x steel wool pads in it on a Tuesday.  On Saturday I blackened my leather.  I didn't take a single measurement.      - your level is dropping because vinegar is mostly water, and water evaporates because you made a vent hole in the jar lid.  Its not hurting anything.     Also, its nice when the mixture remains clear, but it still works just fine when it develops some sludge from the steel wool rusting.  

[mdawson]

  On 4/7/2023 at 2:59 PM, Gosut said:

 

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Hey Gosut

I've made a couple of batches of vinegroon but have been struggling to understand the chemistry, I forgot how to do all this stuff decades ago, never used it since high school.

I wouldn't worry about the little extra vinegar you put in, unfortunately the strength written on the vinegar bottle is likely rounded off so the results are always going to be 'within experimental limits'.

Looking forward to your conclusions in a week or so.

Mark

[chuck123wapati]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:32 AM, Gosut said:

Update:

The vinegar has dropped slightly in the neck of the bottle, with no signs of leaks. That had me wondering how much drop would I see from the reaction. What follows is horribly slip-shod because I've forgotten the particulars about solutions. I'm going to have to break out an old chemistry text.

My reasoning, slipshod as it is, is that the 46g iron that I used for calculations has a volume of 5.905 ml. Added to 2000ml of vinegar gives 2005.905 ml. The 100 g of acetic acid in the 2000 ml vinegar  would be 95.829ml. So, 2000 - 95.829 = 1904.171ml water.

If all the iron combined with acetic acid, that would give 144.865g ferrous acetate, which would have a volume of 83.544 ml. Added to 1904.171 = 1987.715 ml. 2005.905 - 1987.715 = 18.19ml  drop in the vinegar.

Again, note I've forgotten what little I knew about solutions, so these calculations may not be correct. It does look like my goal of keeping a minimal surface area exposed to air will mean topping it off more. I've already messed up this part of the experiment by adding vinegar to fill up the voids, so the result is going to contain more acetic acid than I hopped. OTOH, so far the liquid is clear.

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  On 4/11/2023 at 1:53 AM, Littlef said:

I think you're putting way more thought behind this, than is necessary.  I just did a vinegaroon belt pouch for round balls.  I filled a pickle jar with vinegar, and jammed 2 4x steel wool pads in it on a Tuesday.  On Saturday I blackened my leather.  I didn't take a single measurement.      - your level is dropping because vinegar is mostly water, and water evaporates because you made a vent hole in the jar lid.  Its not hurting anything.     Also, its nice when the mixture remains clear, but it still works just fine when it develops some sludge from the steel wool rusting.  

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yea pretty much , here's the deal the vinegar is simply to speed up the process of reducing the iron(rusting it away) and putting it in a liquid suspension . You could use plain water but it would take much longer than the vinegar. It doesn't have to be exact in any way and its about as sciency as putting a mento in diet pop. 

If you use stronger vinegar then you also put stronger acids on your leather which isn't good, neither would be the oil you wanted to put on top of the mixture to keep out air. Remember the end result is to produce a liquid you can put on leather, dye it black, and not ruin it.

There are more than a couple of threads on this topic it may be good to read through some of them, there are also other ways to make the roon.  

Good luck!!! 

 

[Gosut]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:53 AM, Littlef said:

I think you're putting way more thought behind this, than is necessary.  I just did a vinegaroon belt pouch for round balls.  I filled a pickle jar with vinegar, and jammed 2 4x steel wool pads in it on a Tuesday.  On Saturday I blackened my leather.  I didn't take a single measurement.      - your level is dropping because vinegar is mostly water, and water evaporates because you made a vent hole in the jar lid.  Its not hurting anything.     Also, its nice when the mixture remains clear, but it still works just fine when it develops some sludge from the steel wool rusting.  

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I drive my wife up the wall with my insistence on using measurements when cooking.

"I just add some salt," she might say

""But how much?" I ask. "How long do you let it cook?"

"I don't know. I just as it until it looks right."

That works well for her, but for a simpleton like myself, who only cooks on rare occasions, that's frustrating. I don't have the experience to know what "looks right."

Same thing here. Like soap making, people were making iron liquor long before they understood exactly what was going on, and some of those old timers got mighty good results by eyeballing ingredients. But, like those soap makers of old, others got mixed results. Which is how homemade soap got the reputation of being harsh, because some ended up with excess lye.

With vinegaroon, my question is the amount of free acetic acid, Ideally, an exact combination of iron with acetic acid should yield none, but I doubt that's possible with this kind of set-up. There will be some. If we neutralize it, we introduce sodium bicarbonate to the leather, but simply applying sodium bicarbonate might have bad effects on leather. Yes, I know free acetic and tannic acid would combine with the baking soda, but how much is left in the leather? So many unknowns.

Basically, I want to understand what's going on chemically, and come up with a working recipe for personal use. Some of what I thought would work has already gone out the window, but that in itself teaches something. OTOH, so far there's no orange in the solution itself, so minimizing surface area exposed to air might help. OTOH, would have to do the same thing in a wide mouth container with the steel wool completely submerged in the vinegar to see if it's the smaller surface area or just keeping the steel wool away from oxygen.

[Gosut]

  On 4/11/2023 at 5:58 AM, mdawson said:

Hey Gosut

I've made a couple of batches of vinegroon but have been struggling to understand the chemistry, I forgot how to do all this stuff decades ago, never used it since high school.

I wouldn't worry about the little extra vinegar you put in, unfortunately the strength written on the vinegar bottle is likely rounded off so the results are always going to be 'within experimental limits'.

Looking forward to your conclusions in a week or so.

Mark

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Thanks. I really am ready to dust off my old chemistry text book and start at the front. Have forgotten way too much of this stuff.

This morning it looks like I may be getting significant dissolving of the steel wool. However, that could be shifting due to hydrogen forming on the steel wool and moving it around slightly in the liquid. Will wait and see.

[Littlef]

  On 4/12/2023 at 5:01 PM, Gosut said:

I drive my wife up the wall with my insistence on using measurements when cooking.

"I just add some salt," she might say

""But how much?" I ask. "How long do you let it cook?"

"I don't know. I just as it until it looks right."

That works well for her, but for a simpleton like myself, who only cooks on rare occasions, that's frustrating. I don't have the experience to know what "looks right."

Same thing here. Like soap making, people were making iron liquor long before they understood exactly what was going on, and some of those old timers got mighty good results by eyeballing ingredients. But, like those soap makers of old, others got mixed results. Which is how homemade soap got the reputation of being harsh, because some ended up with excess lye.

With vinegaroon, my question is the amount of free acetic acid, Ideally, an exact combination of iron with acetic acid should yield none, but I doubt that's possible with this kind of set-up. There will be some. If we neutralize it, we introduce sodium bicarbonate to the leather, but simply applying sodium bicarbonate might have bad effects on leather. Yes, I know free acetic and tannic acid would combine with the baking soda, but how much is left in the leather? So many unknowns.

Basically, I want to understand what's going on chemically, and come up with a working recipe for personal use. Some of what I thought would work has already gone out the window, but that in itself teaches something. OTOH, so far there's no orange in the solution itself, so minimizing surface area exposed to air might help. OTOH, would have to do the same thing in a wide mouth container with the steel wool completely submerged in the vinegar to see if it's the smaller surface area or just keeping the steel wool away from oxygen.

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sure, nothing wrong with wanting to understand how things work.  Enjoy the experiment!