Sewing machine suggestions

[Wizcrafts]

4 minutes ago, kgg said:

Also since you are hand-stitching what size of thread do you want to use in the machine? This will also be a factor in selecting a machine. Most upholstery class 1541 flatbeds can handle V138, most class 1341 cylinder beds can handle V207 while the class 441 can handle V415. The totally manual machines like Cowboy Outlaw ($1400) can handle up to V346 and the Tippmann Boss ($999) can handle up to V415.

We who are already skilled leather sewers should feel an obligation to inform the newbies to sewing machines that the larger the size of the thread, the harder it is to hide the lockstitch knots. This is not intuitive to a non-sewer. Lets take a for-instance...

Assume that the thickness of an assembled wallet that has a 2 ounce interior and a 5-6 ounce carved back is between 7 and 8 ounces. If you lace that wallet it will cover the edges  and fill the holes to the degree of your lacing skill. You could get 90+% coverage if you're really good. Instead, to save time and keep the selling price down, you hand sew the wallet with two needles doing a running saddle stitch. Each needle sews both on top and on the bottom. The stitches will appear balanced no matter how thick the thread is. This is because it is just a over-under running stitch. There are no "kmot" to conceal.

Now, when you take the same wallet to a lockstitch sewing machine, which means 99% of all industrial sewing machines capable of sewing a wallet, the top thread must go down and pick up the bottom (bobbin) thread and overlap it, then pull it up inside the layers. This overlap creates what appears to be knots inside the needle holes. If the thread is thin, it will fold much tighter than the thread used in hand stitching. The overlapping knots will only take  a fraction of the depth. However, if the person making the wallet wants a bolder thread appearance, approaching that of a hand sewn wallet, he or she will run into the fact that the lockstitch knots will probably be visible on the top or bottom of the needle holes. If you were to consult a needle and thread chart, you would see that in order to get the same top appearance as a hand sewn (two needle) sewing job, you'd need #346, or 415, or even 554 thread. This thread is usually bonded nylon, or bonded polyester. This bonded thread doesn't bend as neatly as linen thread and the lockstitch knots will look horrible!

You may be wondering why we don't just run linen hand sewing thread through the sewing machine so it looks closer to a hand sewn wallet. It's because, with few exceptions, modern lockstitch machines cannot properly handle linen thread, especially pre-waxed thread. You can experiment with every setting and you'll probably end up shredding the thread and getting wax flaking off through the needle's eye, thread guides, bobbin case and shuttle, and the tensioners..

Practically, a machine sewn wallet that is between 7 and 8 ounces total thickness will have to be done using no larger than #138 bonded nylon, or bonded polyester thread. The tensions and thread paths will have to be clean and carefully adjusted to hide the knots. This #138 thread is about 1/2 the diameter of 6 cord linen sewing thread. The "knots" may be as large as .04 inches, or .828mm.

If you read the chart I linked to you'll see that #138 bonded thread has about 22 pounds breaking strength. Practically though, that number may be as low as 16 pounds due to the stress and friction encountered when sewing leather.

Conclusion: If you want a bold thread appearance, hand sew with 5 or 6 cord waxed linen thread. If you want to save time, machine sew with #138 bonded thread. If time doesn't matter, lace the wallet. Calculate what your time is worth and charge accordingly. But, don't think you can compete against low wage sewers in poorer countries who perform the same operation dozens of times every day. They are faster than Damnit or they're replaced by somebody else who is faster.

[Spicytacoman]

8 hours ago, kgg said:

Just adding a sewing machine that can do your items will cut your labor cost. In my example your cost would drop to $15.00 rather then $30 which would give you a fighting chance at attracting sales.

kgg

Bingo! im trying plus im not very fast qt saddle stitching and my results aren't always clean. 2 birds 1 stone hehe

[Spicytacoman]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

 

Conclusion: If you want a bold thread appearance, hand sew with 5 or 6 cord waxed linen thread. If you want to save time, machine sew with #138 bonded thread. If time doesn't matter, lace the wallet. Calculate what your time is worth and charge accordingly. But, don't think you can compete against low wage sewers in poorer countries who perform the same operation dozens of times every day. They are faster than Damnit or they're replaced by somebody else who is faster.

That was a true pleasure to read. In the beginning I never gave much though to thread size and now realize how important it is to thicker items and machines as well.

It is just a shame the entry points for leatherworking  is a bit intimidating but it'll clear up some of the issues im having right now.

[MtlBiker]

10 hours ago, Spicytacoman said:

I may just get the 1206rb since toledo can ship it for around $1550. I can't find anything that can compete or anyone that will say so otherwise for me work environment :p

Please research further!  I really don't think a 1206rb would be better than the 206RB-5.  As far as I know, the 1206 is more of a high-speed garment machine and the oil pump is most efficient at way higher speeds than most leather sewers would use.  So that's not an advantage.  Also without a safety clutch you really run a risk of an expensive repair when (probably not IF) the machine jams up.  And while I'm not in the US, based on what the machines sell for here, I'm pretty sure you would be able to find a NEW 206RB-5 for about $1,000 US including table and servo motor.  (I paid CDN $1300 two years ago for a brand new one.)

Also as others have suggested, a cylinder arm machine, especially if you can get an aluminum flatbed table attachment for it, is probably your most versatile option.

Good luck!
 

[Spicytacoman]

38 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Please research further!  I really don't think a 1206rb would be better than the 206RB-5.  As far as I know, the 1206 is more of a high-speed garment machine and the oil pump is most efficient at way higher speeds than most leather sewers would use.  So that's not an advantage.  Also without a safety clutch you really run a risk of an expensive repair when (probably not IF) the machine jams up.  And while I'm not in the US, based on what the machines sell for here, I'm pretty sure you would be able to find a NEW 206RB-5 for about $1,000 US including table and servo motor.  (I paid CDN $1300 two years ago for a brand new one.)

Also as others have suggested, a cylinder arm machine, especially if you can get an aluminum flatbed table attachment for it, is probably your most versatile option.

Good luck!
 

Well toledo sewing machine sells it for $1449. With shipping to a warehouse near orlando being an extra $250 it comes out to $1700. If I want it shipped to my home it is $400 for shipping.

I wish it were as cheap as $1000 haha.

[MtlBiker]

52 minutes ago, Spicytacoman said:

Well toledo sewing machine sells it for $1449. With shipping to a warehouse near orlando being an extra $250 it comes out to $1700. If I want it shipped to my home it is $400 for shipping.

I wish it were as cheap as $1000 haha.

That's crazy expensive!  That makes it very close to $2,000 Canadian.  It's hard to believe that the machine is so much more expensive in the US than here in Canada.  Usually it's the other way around.  Out of curiosity, have you checked with any other dealers?  There's no dealer in Florida close to you?  Toledo has a stellar reputation but...  I'd check around.

[Spicytacoman]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

That's crazy expensive!  That makes it very close to $2,000 Canadian.  It's hard to believe that the machine is so much more expensive in the US than here in Canada.  Usually it's the other way around.  Out of curiosity, have you checked with any other dealers?  There's no dealer in Florida close to you?  Toledo has a stellar reputation but...  I'd check around.

I tried calling around for 3 weeks but couldn't find any that have industrial style machines. One shop stated there was one in Orlando called Sunstate Industrial but they shut down the business awhile back...

I'm really torn, I'd hate to buy a machine and not sell but I also love the hobby so don't think I will stop making for at least personal use, as for selling I feel like my products are look great but just not in the right price range.

Debating on the whole stitching pony idea to speed up the saddle stitch until I made some sales but my stitching still isn't 100% professional looking. Which is why I'm trying to get something cheaper if possible but of course want it to last. 

Grown man about to start tearing up and crying over here lol joking.

[Garyak]

You’re leaning toward new, and a $1500 budget. Unless you’re a drivable distance from the machine you’re gonna buy, comes the first bang for your buck. $500 off the top for shipping, order it from a middleman (any place besides the main plug) they’re gonna grab their cut, they ain’t selling somebody else’s machines for free. 500$ shipping, middleman clip you for their fee ???.  When it arrives if you ship, gonna slap you with a 75$ lift gate fee, if you let’em. You got about 800$ for a machine now. That’s estimated in your favor. Most bang for your buck is keeping you ear to the area you live in, stalk sales pages, and hit estate sales. Be patient and you can find the machine you want at a favorable price… again, if you ship, don’t let’em tell ya it’s 75$ to drop the machine you bought and they  drove across country to your house in the street. I just laughed and hopped up in the truck and pushed the down button on the corded remote. Driver didn’t say a word, but he also took off before I could inspect my machine. It was all good tho. 

[Wizcrafts]

7 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

That's crazy expensive!  That makes it very close to $2,000 Canadian.  It's hard to believe that the machine is so much more expensive in the US than here in Canada.  Usually it's the other way around.  Out of curiosity, have you checked with any other dealers?  There's no dealer in Florida close to you?  Toledo has a stellar reputation but...  I'd check around.

I just did a price check on the Consew 206RB-5, complete, with a motor and table, delivered to a residential address with a lift gate. They all revolved around the $2000 to $2400 range. The prices under $2000 were either for the head only, or for delivery to a commercial address with a loading dock. The prices for the head only ranged from $1499, plus tax, to $1999, plus tax.

Some of the sellers are unlikely to offer any after the sale support. Personally, when I bought my first couple of sewing machines, I called the dealers multiple times with questions. One dealer who sold me a well used head only, refused to give free support and that was back in the mid to late 1980s. OTOH, when I bought a new machine, my calls were welcomed and gladly answered with all the answers to get me going again. This is something to bear in mind if one is buying their first industrial sewing machine and trying to shave dollars off the total price. You can shave yourself into the jackpot if you buy too cheaply. Or, you'll be begging for help from unpaid volunteers on here, or other forums, or groups.

Another thing to consider is that customers in Canada have a different trade agreement with Chinese made goods than we do in the USA. All Chinese imports are automatically hit with at least a 25% import tariff, in addition to any other duty , shipping, delivery, and State sales tax. Ebay and Amazon automatically add State sales tax to all purchases shipped to US addresses. I can't speak to the difference in purchasing power of a Canadian Dollar vs a US dollar. But, again, Canadian money paying for Chinese goods that aren't hit with the 25% import penalty are probably paying a better, or similar price, especially if the machine was already in stock and bought before any recent price increases, dollar declines, or duties.

[MtlBiker]

14 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I just did a price check on the Consew 206RB-5, complete, with a motor and table, delivered to a residential address with a lift gate. They all revolved around the $2000 to $2400 range. The prices under $2000 were either for the head only, or for delivery to a commercial address with a loading dock. The prices for the head only ranged from $1499, plus tax, to $1999, plus tax.

Some of the sellers are unlikely to offer any after the sale support. Personally, when I bought my first couple of sewing machines, I called the dealers multiple times with questions. One dealer who sold me a well used head only, refused to give free support and that was back in the mid to late 1980s. OTOH, when I bought a new machine, my calls were welcomed and gladly answered with all the answers to get me going again. This is something to bear in mind if one is buying their first industrial sewing machine and trying to shave dollars off the total price. You can shave yourself into the jackpot if you buy too cheaply. Or, you'll be begging for help from unpaid volunteers on here, or other forums, or groups.

Another thing to consider is that customers in Canada have a different trade agreement with Chinese made goods than we do in the USA. All Chinese imports are automatically hit with at least a 25% import tariff, in addition to any other duty , shipping, delivery, and State sales tax. Ebay and Amazon automatically add State sales tax to all purchases shipped to US addresses. I can't speak to the difference in purchasing power of a Canadian Dollar vs a US dollar. But, again, Canadian money paying for Chinese goods that aren't hit with the 25% import penalty are probably paying a better, or similar price, especially if the machine was already in stock and bought before any recent price increases, dollar declines, or duties.

For years and years we've (Canadians) become accustomed to things being much cheaper in the US than here in Canada even accounting for exchange rates, and I guess things have changed.  The import tariff you mentioned is probably a huge factor but I am still surprised to learn there's such a big difference in pricing between our two countries.  The difference seems to be almost double now.  Geez.

In my case with my machine, I didn't have to pay any shipping charges as the Canadian source is here in my city and I was able to drive there and pick it up myself.  With the head removed, the table fit in my SUV without problem.

I'm curious about how importing stuff like these machines works... does the machine come into North America directly to both Canada and the US, or does it go to the US (most common) and from there is shipped up to Canada.  In the case of Consew, it seems the North American office is in the US, and if machines go to the US first and are then shipped to Canada, I'd expect them to be much more expensive in Canada.  I mean, do the importers really keep machines destined for Canada in bonded warehouses without paying US import duties and tariffs and then ship them?  If not, I'd imagine they must pay the US fees which are then tacked onto the Canadian costs.  But for the price (when I bought) to be cheaper here in Canada than in the US, it would appear the machines come into Canada directly and not via the US.  Just curious.  Anyway this pricing difference has been an eye opener.