custom boots that don't fit

[JAM]

Can someone explain to me how a custom boot is made "by volume"? What does that mean, exactly? I had "custom" riding boots made that were too tight in the toes to wear, and the soles are much narrower then the drawn outlines of each foot, and the reasoning given to me was "the bootmakers use a formula and build the boots by volume". Does that make sense somehow?

Edited June 8, 2023 by JAM
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[fredk]

To me, absolutely NO. They are not custom made but production line made. Custom made is to your requirements.  Whether it is customizing a car, motorcycle, EDC bag or boots, the item is made and/or altered to the customer's requirements

Obviously these boots do fit that description. I'd send them back and get a full refund for both the cost and sending them back and threaten legal action forthwith

Edited June 8, 2023 by fredk

[JAM]

Thank you fredk.  That's what I think, too, but I didn't know if maybe that was a thing about bootmaking that I just didn't understand. I've been going round with them about this issue and the current answer is "they have specialized leather stretching equipment and will stretch the leather to make them fit". I said I don't think it will work but go ahead, prove me wrong. Unfortunately they are in Europe. I think a refund (they are expensive boots) is probably going to be the end result. So disappointing - I really believed they made custom boots, and I can't wear non-custom boots. 

[fredk]

My advice is not to accept the stretching. The consumer law in the UK and most of Europe, and maybe the US, is once you agree to a fix or repair you are stuck with finally accepting those goods, even if the fix or repair is unsuccessful. I always insist on a completely new replacement item

[JAM]

After some back and forth and unwillingness to believe that they don't fit, they were going to make me a whole new pair of boots, and asked for new foot drawings and measurements. I sent that, they plugged it into their "ancient formula", and said they came up with exactly the same template, so there's no point in making new boots. A formula doesn't sound custom to me but I know nothing about bootmaking, which is why I posted my question here. I suspect I will be a disgruntled customer who posts a bad review of my experience with them on Facebook as a warning to others. It's not the first time I've wasted a lot of money and it won't be the last, but at least I'm more confident that I'm not wrong, they really aren't the "bespoke, custom" bootmakers they sell themselves as. Not being a bootmaker I didn't know if this "building by volume" and "formula" idea was really as flaky as I thought, but I'm pretty sure that custom riding boots ought to fit my feet and not be excruciatingly painful. Thank you for your input and advice.

[fredk]

Using a 'formula' does not sound correct. 42 (!) or so years ago I got 'custom' made motorcycle riding boots made. The company did not have the exact size in every direction that I wanted so they offered to make mea pair to fit. I sent various measurements, an outline of each foot and even a pair of my favourite motorcycling socks. 4 weeks later I got a pair of motorcycling boots which fitted perfectly and which I used for the next 28 years. They were still good when I passed them on to another rider after I gave up riding

[chuck123wapati]

the only info i could come up with on boot volume is an article explaining it for ski boots. Some type of calculations according to your foot length width and height. it does say its not a standard so there are variations in how they are interpreted. It also says it makes for a very tight boot. Over all my experience is saying it is probably a program built to do what experienced boot makers can do without a computer program. As soon as you mentioned "bespoke" my hackles were raised as to the amount of experience this company has in actual boot making compared to modern advertising gimmicks.

I would send them back I've seen handmade custom boots made correctly by experienced boot makers, they fit perfectly as Fred has stated.

[doubleh]

Volume made does not translate into custom made. Personally I would return them and look for a true custom bootmaker. I don't know what custom bootmakers do today but the one I worked with many years ago measured your foot right there in his shop and fitted a last to each foot. They fit first time and he had customers come quite a distance to get a pair of boots made by him. Now it seems most things are made just to get them out the door as quickly as possible and to heck with the customer.

Edited June 9, 2023 by doubleh

[kgg]

19 hours ago, JAM said:

Can someone explain to me how a custom boot is made "by volume"? What does that mean, exactly?

To me a custom boot would mean constructed to fit my two pegs perfectly. Just like having a tailor made suit, it fits only one person perfectly. By "volume" to me is just another way of saying "off the rack". Have you search for a boot-maker close to your location or maybe ask a pedorthic clinic for recommendations on who could make a custom boot for your needs.

kgg

[JAM]

Thank you, all of you, for your comments. I'm a lot more confident now that the boots should be comfortable from hour one if they are truly custom made, and I should ask for a refund. These boots are tall English riding boots and there aren't many companies that make them custom; this company makes them in all kinds of colors and you can design whatever you want,  which I suppose makes them "bespoke", but they still need to be custom fit to my feet. Thanks again for answering my question and for all your advice. 

[JAM]

It's now a year later and I thought I'd tell the end of this tale. The bootmakers in England gave up and fully refunded my money (I even profited a little by the change in the currency exchange rate between when I sent the money and when it was refunded - yay!). Tried a different bootmaker here in the USA; they were okay but had to be sent back and remade because the first set was clearly done wrong. (I have custom western boots which are great, but there are very few custom English riding boot makers). So then it hit me:  if I can build custom saddles, which I have for many years, why can't I learn to build my own shoes and boots? 

It's very different from building saddles, and takes different tools. I've learned about buying lasts and then modifying them for my feet, and making patterns, and tried several kinds of sole construction, and it's fascinating and absorbing and not easy. I understand now what the bootmakers were doing (and not doing, and doing wrong) because I understand the process now, and the difference between off-the-shelf, sort-of-custom, and truly bespoke. 

I've made four pairs of shoes now, am starting my second pair of paddock boots, and am working my way up to tall English riding boots. Everything I've made is vastly more comfortable than any pair of retail shoes or even custom boots I own because my lasts fit MY feet. 

I still have lots to learn and this is a fantastic new leather hobby! I never would have thought that a bad experience with a not-so-great bootmaker could open up a whole new world and passion.

I do have a question, if someone has an answer to share: What do you do or use to finish the surface of the leather on a new pair of boots or shoes, and prepare it for polish? Do you just polish and wax like normal? 

[Mulesaw]

@JAM

Glad to hear that it was all sorted out. 
I am trying to position myself to go down the road of future boot making. My initial idea was to sort of reverse engineer a couple of old riding boots to get an idea of how the patters for the various parts should look, and then make it to the size that will fit a custom made last. 

Did you do it in that way or did you just start out without looking at older boots individual parts first? 
I know there is a huge difference between dressage and jumping boots, in their stiffness, and I intend to make jumping boots at least for a start. 

I have to admit that I haven't got any experience about your answer regarding the treatment of the surface of the leather on new boots. I would guess that shoepolish and perhaps a leather conditioner would be how I'd do it.

Brgds Jonas 

[Tastech]

@JAM It depends on the leather you use . veg tan and chrome tan have different requirements . You can soften up the leather using a mink oil base conditioner and polish over the top . Or before you do that and you need to get them to a right fit you can spray them with water in the tight spots and then wear them just a little damp and they will  mold to your feet . Most people have slightly different shaped feet and lasts come in identical pairs so a little tweeking is necessary .Take note of where there are any problems with your existing shoes you have made and adjust the last in that area .  For tight spots on shoes i do what i call "breaking" depending on where the tight spot is i will use anything from a broom handle to a steel cobblers last and use a pushing and rolling method to work the leather . Alot of people have problems with the heel area which causes blisters i use the breaking method and it softens things up . When it comes to polish i think a cream polish is best because it contains conditioner . Wax polishes contain a solvent that over time can dry out the leather and it begins to crack . Think of it like this . Conditioner is like a skin moisturizer. Polish is like make up. They do 2 different things . If the leather is well conditioned then it does not need polish . A cream polish is midway between the 2 . It contains conditioning oils , color pigment and some wax that polishes up quite well .  I prefer mink oil base conditioners because they penetrate well and offer water resistance and allows the leather to breathe .   The saphir brand  does this . Collonil is good too. Avoid things like dubbin . that is more suited to oiled leathers and work boots . Neatsfoot oil is ok but can leave a greasy residue it is more suited for saddles and harness.

When it comes to custom boots the are misnamed they are made to order not bespoke . The problem is the place selling them takes 2 measurements . Length and width them passes them on to a factory . 2 measurements are no way near enough  I take at least 6 and make a note of any foot anomalies and 3 calf measurements at the very least . I make shoes but not riding boots . If a shoe doesn't fit right a little piece of me dies , because i have to re make it and that could be 20 - 30 hours of my life i will never get back . So its the person taking the measurements that screws up not necessarily the shoe maker. I don't care what any one says but you can't self measure , you just can't . 

[JAM]

Mulesaw - I started with just shoes, some books, some digital patterns I bought on line, and lots of trials with a pair of lasts that were custom made by podohub. Lots of masking tape patterns, trial shoes first made of felt, altering the lasts a bit, then making several trial shoes out of whatever leather I had on hand (ugly soft chaps leather, mostly). I've printed lots of pictures of different shoes and boots to look at how their patterns are put together, studied my own custom boots from long ago, and watched a lot of YouTube videos about making shoes and boots. Every shoe (and now paddock boot) I make is a trial and I alter the pattern as needed for the second shoe or boot in the pair,  then keep the altered pattern. I'm not using good leather until I have the pattern and process down. I wear the pairs that work and learn from every shoe or paddock boot I make. The tall riding boots will be easier to figure out after I have a handle on the paddock boots. We are blessed with a ton of information available these days. 

[JAM]

Tastech - thank you - your entire post was very educational. "Breaking" the leather in difficult spots, the differences in conditioners, polished, and waxes, all very helpful, thank you. Mink oil base conditioners, Saphir and Collonil - I'll look for those.