3000 vs. the 4000

[bcurrier]

I've spoken a few times to Artisan (Steve) about their machines, and am close to a purchase, but hesitating over the capacity - and price - of the 3000 vs. the 4000. I think I'd really rather have the extra arm capacity of the 4000, but am having some trouble seeing $1,000 of difference between these two machines. Those of you who have them, especially if you have both ... for what sort of work do you go to the 4000? Is there anything about either machine that makes you like one more than the other?

Bill

[Art]

Hi Bill,

Did Steve tell you that they have a 3000 with a 25 inch arm? I think the price was right at $3000. They introduced this at Wichita Falls in October. The extra length comes in handy when you are doing things like cartridge belts and blankets and pads, the downside is it is one big puppy. The differences between the 3000 and 4000R is more metal for sure and an integral bobbin winder in addition to the 16 inch arm. I have the 4000P and it is a different animal altogether.

Art

I've spoken a few times to Artisan (Steve) about their machines, and am close to a purchase, but hesitating over the capacity - and price - of the 3000 vs. the 4000. I think I'd really rather have the extra arm capacity of the 4000, but am having some trouble seeing $1,000 of difference between these two machines. Those of you who have them, especially if you have both ... for what sort of work do you go to the 4000? Is there anything about either machine that makes you like one more than the other?

Bill

[bcurrier]

No, he didn't mention the long-arm 3000, but can't imagine I'd go for that! I can definitely see the application with really bulky items like blankets and such that are hard to roll down to manageable size, but think it would a luxury (handy one, though!) for cartridge belts.

Do you regard the 4000P as a better machine than the 4000R, or just different? (ignoring the capacity difference for a second)

Bill

Hi Bill,

Did Steve tell you that they have a 3000 with a 25 inch arm? I think the price was right at $3000. They introduced this at Wichita Falls in October. The extra length comes in handy when you are doing things like cartridge belts and blankets and pads, the downside is it is one big puppy. The differences between the 3000 and 4000R is more metal for sure and an integral bobbin winder in addition to the 16 inch arm. I have the 4000P and it is a different animal altogether.

Art

[Art]

Hi Bill,

The 4000P is a different casting with heavier parts and bearings and casting. Definitely a commercial machine for all day, every day kind of use and for sewing 7/8 leather; the 4000P is also quieter, probably because the casting is heavier . Is it better than the 4000R, well yes kind of, but I defy the average leatherworker to wear out the 4000R, much less the 4000P. Many of the parts are the same between the two. You might want to save some money with the 4000R if you aren't planning on constant use. If you don't need the extra 6 or 7 inches of arm, the 3000 is definitely the way to go.

Art

No, he didn't mention the long-arm 3000, but can't imagine I'd go for that! I can definitely see the application with really bulky items like blankets and such that are hard to roll down to manageable size, but think it would a luxury (handy one, though!) for cartridge belts.

Do you regard the 4000P as a better machine than the 4000R, or just different? (ignoring the capacity difference for a second)

Bill

[bcurrier]

I appreciate the perspective. My primary applications are gunleather (including the aforementioned cartridge belts) and motorcycle items (seats, bags, etc.). To your point, as a non-professional user, I'm extremely unlikely to wear out any industrial machine. I've found it best with industrial machines, though, to be extremely particular as to fitting suitability to the task - at least when they're expensive. That is, I can get several machines for my wife, like a single needle lockstitch, lighter-duty walking foot, zig-zag, etc., without breaking the bank. Can't do that with the expensive leatherworking machines, though. Even the accessories are expensive. A needle plate for the average lockstitch machine is maybe ten bucks. A needle plate for a heavy cylinder bed machine runs $100, plus or minus. Ditto needles, feet, etc. Understanding the limits of flexibility (or lack of it) and the associated costs matters with an industrial.

Bill

[Art]

Bill,

If you stitch cartridge loops then a 4000R is a definite plus. If you need accessories, figure out what you need and then play "lets make a deal" when you purchase. Artisan is working on a needle positioning motor so that may also be an option (makes for faster positioning and turning when doing loops).

Art

I appreciate the perspective. My primary applications are gunleather (including the aforementioned cartridge belts) and motorcycle items (seats, bags, etc.). To your point, as a non-professional user, I'm extremely unlikely to wear out any industrial machine. I've found it best with industrial machines, though, to be extremely particular as to fitting suitability to the task - at least when they're expensive. That is, I can get several machines for my wife, like a single needle lockstitch, lighter-duty walking foot, zig-zag, etc., without breaking the bank. Can't do that with the expensive leatherworking machines, though. Even the accessories are expensive. A needle plate for the average lockstitch machine is maybe ten bucks. A needle plate for a heavy cylinder bed machine runs $100, plus or minus. Ditto needles, feet, etc. Understanding the limits of flexibility (or lack of it) and the associated costs matters with an industrial.

Bill

[skipj]

I emailed Artisan and Jerry says the 25" machine is a TORO-4000 LA 25. They are sold out and expect more in Jan or Feb.

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

I emailed Artisan and Jerry says the 25" machine is a TORO-4000 LA 25. They are sold out and expect more in Jan or Feb.

SkipJ

Thanks, Skip. I'm already having trouble figuring out how I'm going to get a 4000 (assuming the price is good ...) up to the third floor - never mind a 25!!! On the price, by the way, local industrial dealers all have their own 441 and Adler clones for sale for considerably less money. Hard to know the right way to go sometimes, but Artisan does have an excellent rep, plus the response to-date has been terrific.

Moving my wife's Juki DDL-8700 to the same location was a chore. The head was actually easy - it's heavy (about 90 lbs.), but one person can do it, and the arm gives you a good hold. The STAND, on the other hand, was a bear.

Bill

[esantoro]

Every day I realize more and more the need to have additional machines. Someday, the toro 3000 will be a nice addition. Do the 3000 and 4000 p both handle various needle sizes and thread in the same manner, and their only real differences being arm length?

Ed