DIY leather conditioner

[chuck123wapati]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:39 PM, ScottWolf said:

Petrolatum IS mineral oil and those recipes are specifically for waterproofing, not conditioning leather.

pretty much the same thing friend. if you do one you don't need the other. unless of course you only condition your snow boots. The basics of "liquoring", or "conditioning"  leather is pretty straight forward.

15 hours ago, deboardp said:

I'm impetuous. I realized this evening that Eastern Orthodox monks don't eat meat, and my target demograph is monks first and Orthodox lay people second, so why am i buying lard and tallow to condition their footwear??? Sheesh. I'm an idiot, too. 

So, regroup. I need to reread the discussion about recipes for leather conditioner that Scott Wolf mentions above in this thread, and read the thread on this topic from September. How does one mark that? Could i have used a browser bookmark? I had just gotten to the part where someone posted links to discussions from 1940 and from 100 years ago about fats and oils to condition leather. I did read in one of those that wool wax and wool grease are ingredients, and I heard of some kind of fat or wax made from nuts. I lost many memory functions during my stroke of 2015. Be grateful if you remember things. I guess I'll be wanting a leather conditioner that 1), doesn't harm leather in any way, but rather makes it soft for contact with tender feet, and 2), doesn't stain the socks that people can where with these sandals, and 3) doesn't contain fats from animal food products. 

Off the cuff, there's anhydrous lanolin and there's beeswax. I'll read more and see if my aversion to using NFO and other oils is warranted and supported by actual evidence, and to find evidence of what else could join my recipe. 

you might try the #2 petrolatum and beeswax formula in the book. Always test!!!!! 

[deboardp]

40 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

pretty much the same thing friend. if you do one you don't need the other. unless of course you only condition your snow boots. The basics of "liquoring", or "conditioning"  leather is pretty straight forward.

you might try the #2 petrolatum and beeswax formula in the book. Always test!!!!! 

you say the basics of conditioning are straight forward. Please, humor me, and write them down for me. I'm just not a smart as I used to be, and I'm not so sure about how smart I was then!

I did some reality checking, asked my priest if I could use tallow (Scott said he had used lard and it started to stink, so I won't use lard), and the priest said use whatever is best. I should have asked him what THAT might be, haha. 

So I'm back to using Oz's version of saddler's grease: 50% tallow, 25% beeswax, 25% anhydrous lanolin (instead of lard). I might toss in a little macadamia nut oil so the compound is like butter rather than mortar mix. After wetting the leather with warm water I'll work that stuff into both sides of the straps with my hands, plus the topsole (top side only, by this time it will have been glued and stitched). After it all dries in my shop I'll do the cod liver oil treatment. How exciting!  

Tell me, Chuck, after that, are the sandals conditioned, waterproofed, or both? Haha. I just want to know what I'm doing. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by deboardp

[SUP]

@deboardp lanolin, beeswax and mineral oil provides everything - softening, water resistance and a warm shine with further protection. I don't use any other animal fat at home except lanolin, the fragrance of which I love, ergo, it ends up on my leathers. Mineral oils are obtained during the production of 'fossil fuels'; fossils are purely from organic material, so mineral oil is organic in origin.. Besides  mineral oil has at least one carbon atom with sp3 hybridization which is the most basic requirement for any chemical to be labelled as 'organic'. 

Cod liver oil. I really want to use that, since it is said to give that characteristic fragrance of leather but how long does it take for the cod liver oil smell to dissipate? Could you let me know please?

@chuck123wapati after you mentioned that book in a different thread, I got one for myself. It is so very interesting, the things people used to make. I can't wait to try some of those recipes, although I wonder if I can get some  of those ingredients these days.  Just love that book. Thank you for mentioning it.

See, I wonder how leather can get hydrated with pure waxes and oils. Hydration requires water. We clean and dry leather completely before applying the conditioners, which are usually all fats and preservatives, so how can it get hydrated?

About conditioning leather, I wonder whether the leather fibers do actually change in any way when a person rubs in waxes and oils into it. How hot can it really get, after all? Certainly not as hot as being out in the summer sun in Nevada, for example. So if the latter does not change the chemical structure, can rubbing in oils change it? I wonder if the conditioners rubbed in just spread through the leather, in between the fibers and cause good lubrication, and as the surface fibers get lubricated, the rubbing allows the oils and waxes to penetrate further and further into the leather? Waxes, being solid  probably stay in place longer than plain oils which might leak out or get wiped off...I wonder if that is what happens.

I know of a couple of conditioners which do not have much fats in them - no color change which,  I have heard, always happens with fats applied to leathers. These conditioners do not condition much at all and soon dry out. I, in fact, use these conditioners only when I specifically do not want the color to change. The items need conditioning so frequently that I do not use them any more.

 

 

[deboardp]

15 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

pretty much the same thing friend. if you do one you don't need the other. unless of course you only condition your snow boots. The basics of "liquoring", or "conditioning"  leather is pretty straight forward.

you might try the #2 petrolatum and beeswax formula in the book. Always test!!!!! 

I don't want to use petrolatum. If rather use something that comes from things that were more recently alive. Don't ask me why, because i don't actually know. 

[SUP]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

I don't want to use petrolatum. If rather use something that comes from things that were more recently alive. Don't ask me why, because i don't actually know.

Precisely why I like to use mineral oil. Oils from recently deceased animals and vegetation are meant for the life of that living object, which is a limited number of years. Mineral oil is a different matter. I want my leathers to last a long time, ergo use a product that has that life as well. 

Different ways of thinking, I guess.

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, SUP said:

@deboardp lanolin, beeswax and mineral oil provides everything - softening, water resistance and a warm shine with further protection. I don't use any other animal fat at home except lanolin, the fragrance of which I love, ergo, it ends up on my leathers. Mineral oils are obtained during the production of 'fossil fuels'; fossils are purely from organic material, so mineral oil is organic in origin.. Besides  mineral oil has at least one carbon atom with sp3 hybridization which is the most basic requirement for any chemical to be labelled as 'organic'. 

Cod liver oil. I really want to use that, since it is said to give that characteristic fragrance of leather but how long does it take for the cod liver oil smell to dissipate? Could you let me know please?

@chuck123wapati after you mentioned that book in a different thread, I got one for myself. It is so very interesting, the things people used to make. I can't wait to try some of those recipes, although I wonder if I can get some  of those ingredients these days.  Just love that book. Thank you for mentioning it.

See, I wonder how leather can get hydrated with pure waxes and oils. Hydration requires water. We clean and dry leather completely before applying the conditioners, which are usually all fats and preservatives, so how can it get hydrated?

About conditioning leather, I wonder whether the leather fibers do actually change in any way when a person rubs in waxes and oils into it. How hot can it really get, after all? Certainly not as hot as being out in the summer sun in Nevada, for example. So if the latter does not change the chemical structure, can rubbing in oils change it? I wonder if the conditioners rubbed in just spread through the leather, in between the fibers and cause good lubrication, and as the surface fibers get lubricated, the rubbing allows the oils and waxes to penetrate further and further into the leather? Waxes, being solid  probably stay in place longer than plain oils which might leak out or get wiped off...I wonder if that is what happens.

I know of a couple of conditioners which do not have much fats in them - no color change which,  I have heard, always happens with fats applied to leathers. These conditioners do not condition much at all and soon dry out. I, in fact, use these conditioners only when I specifically do not want the color to change. The items need conditioning so frequently that I do not use them any more.

 

 

YW lol some times you have to find the modern names to figure out the recipes.

From my feeble knowledge and experience of brain tanning the basic idea is to remove all the stuff inside the leather except the fibers, I can find big words in my book for "stuff" if you need them,  then the stuff inside is replaced by the oils or greases. this allows the leather fibers to flex and move against each other easier which we see and feel as softness or suppleness. the fibers don't change they are just lubricated. As for hydration i think that leather being porous takes in and holds only what humidity will allow, that's why it doesn't stay wet I don't think you can hydrate leather to a given state, say 10% because it will simply evaporate to match the natural humidity and that is why you use oils lol they don't dry as quickly. Yea those aren't true conditioners imo if they don't work and go completely into the fiber structure of the leather, leather has to change color somewhat to be conditioned correctly again IMO.

[ScottWolf]

Here is the deal with Mineral oil for use on leather or human skin for that matter. Yes, it is a petroleum product. Yes it comes from the ground and some consider it "natural" but its not used that way. What we use is a refined version. The level of refinment depends on if its Vaseline or mineral oil (called paraffin wax in some countries), so if you want to still considered it "natural", then you do you.

Whether it's used on leather or on human skin (cosmetics) mineral oil is not fully absorbed into the leather/skin. What it does do is form a barrier on the surface of the leather/skin, that is good at keeping moisture in the leather/skin and preventing anything else from being absorbed. So from a leather conditioning standpoint, it's not a great conditioning ingredient, as it never really penetrates into the leather like other ingredients. What it is good for on leather items, is as a finishing product. Meaning you've made the item, conditioned it and it's all done, ready for use. But before it goes out the door, you give it a once over with a product that has mineral oil in it. What mineral oil is great for on leather is it gives it a nice shine and a "finished" look to the piece. Which is why you will often find it in some commercial conditioning products along with better leather conditioning ingredients.

[chuck123wapati]

33 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

Here is the deal with Mineral oil for use on leather or human skin for that matter. Yes, it is a petroleum product. Yes it comes from the ground and some consider it "natural" but its not used that way. What we use is a refined version. The level of refinment depends on if its Vaseline or mineral oil (called paraffin wax in some countries), so if you want to still considered it "natural", then you do you.

Whether it's used on leather or on human skin (cosmetics) mineral oil is not fully absorbed into the leather/skin. What it does do is form a barrier on the surface of the leather/skin, that is good at keeping moisture in the leather/skin and preventing anything else from being absorbed. So from a leather conditioning standpoint, it's not a great conditioning ingredient, as it never really penetrates into the leather like other ingredients. What it is good for on leather items, is as a finishing product. Meaning you've made the item, conditioned it and it's all done, ready for use. But before it goes out the door, you give it a once over with a product that has mineral oil in it. What mineral oil is great for on leather is it gives it a nice shine and a "finished" look to the piece. Which is why you will often find it in some commercial conditioning products along with better leather conditioning ingredients.

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

[deboardp]

29 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

I like your rant. It's blunt, factual, and informative. This is what I was hoping to read from you. There's a lot of confusing information "out there", but you sermons to have the basics well-understood, which is why I wanted you to write it out. Thanks! Clarity!

[deboardp]

You SEEM , not sermons...