DIY leather conditioner

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, SUP said:

@deboardp lanolin, beeswax and mineral oil provides everything - softening, water resistance and a warm shine with further protection. I don't use any other animal fat at home except lanolin, the fragrance of which I love, ergo, it ends up on my leathers. Mineral oils are obtained during the production of 'fossil fuels'; fossils are purely from organic material, so mineral oil is organic in origin.. Besides  mineral oil has at least one carbon atom with sp3 hybridization which is the most basic requirement for any chemical to be labelled as 'organic'. 

Cod liver oil. I really want to use that, since it is said to give that characteristic fragrance of leather but how long does it take for the cod liver oil smell to dissipate? Could you let me know please?

@chuck123wapati after you mentioned that book in a different thread, I got one for myself. It is so very interesting, the things people used to make. I can't wait to try some of those recipes, although I wonder if I can get some  of those ingredients these days.  Just love that book. Thank you for mentioning it.

See, I wonder how leather can get hydrated with pure waxes and oils. Hydration requires water. We clean and dry leather completely before applying the conditioners, which are usually all fats and preservatives, so how can it get hydrated?

About conditioning leather, I wonder whether the leather fibers do actually change in any way when a person rubs in waxes and oils into it. How hot can it really get, after all? Certainly not as hot as being out in the summer sun in Nevada, for example. So if the latter does not change the chemical structure, can rubbing in oils change it? I wonder if the conditioners rubbed in just spread through the leather, in between the fibers and cause good lubrication, and as the surface fibers get lubricated, the rubbing allows the oils and waxes to penetrate further and further into the leather? Waxes, being solid  probably stay in place longer than plain oils which might leak out or get wiped off...I wonder if that is what happens.

I know of a couple of conditioners which do not have much fats in them - no color change which,  I have heard, always happens with fats applied to leathers. These conditioners do not condition much at all and soon dry out. I, in fact, use these conditioners only when I specifically do not want the color to change. The items need conditioning so frequently that I do not use them any more.

 

 

YW lol some times you have to find the modern names to figure out the recipes.

From my feeble knowledge and experience of brain tanning the basic idea is to remove all the stuff inside the leather except the fibers, I can find big words in my book for "stuff" if you need them,  then the stuff inside is replaced by the oils or greases. this allows the leather fibers to flex and move against each other easier which we see and feel as softness or suppleness. the fibers don't change they are just lubricated. As for hydration i think that leather being porous takes in and holds only what humidity will allow, that's why it doesn't stay wet I don't think you can hydrate leather to a given state, say 10% because it will simply evaporate to match the natural humidity and that is why you use oils lol they don't dry as quickly. Yea those aren't true conditioners imo if they don't work and go completely into the fiber structure of the leather, leather has to change color somewhat to be conditioned correctly again IMO.

[ScottWolf]

Here is the deal with Mineral oil for use on leather or human skin for that matter. Yes, it is a petroleum product. Yes it comes from the ground and some consider it "natural" but its not used that way. What we use is a refined version. The level of refinment depends on if its Vaseline or mineral oil (called paraffin wax in some countries), so if you want to still considered it "natural", then you do you.

Whether it's used on leather or on human skin (cosmetics) mineral oil is not fully absorbed into the leather/skin. What it does do is form a barrier on the surface of the leather/skin, that is good at keeping moisture in the leather/skin and preventing anything else from being absorbed. So from a leather conditioning standpoint, it's not a great conditioning ingredient, as it never really penetrates into the leather like other ingredients. What it is good for on leather items, is as a finishing product. Meaning you've made the item, conditioned it and it's all done, ready for use. But before it goes out the door, you give it a once over with a product that has mineral oil in it. What mineral oil is great for on leather is it gives it a nice shine and a "finished" look to the piece. Which is why you will often find it in some commercial conditioning products along with better leather conditioning ingredients.

[chuck123wapati]

33 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

Here is the deal with Mineral oil for use on leather or human skin for that matter. Yes, it is a petroleum product. Yes it comes from the ground and some consider it "natural" but its not used that way. What we use is a refined version. The level of refinment depends on if its Vaseline or mineral oil (called paraffin wax in some countries), so if you want to still considered it "natural", then you do you.

Whether it's used on leather or on human skin (cosmetics) mineral oil is not fully absorbed into the leather/skin. What it does do is form a barrier on the surface of the leather/skin, that is good at keeping moisture in the leather/skin and preventing anything else from being absorbed. So from a leather conditioning standpoint, it's not a great conditioning ingredient, as it never really penetrates into the leather like other ingredients. What it is good for on leather items, is as a finishing product. Meaning you've made the item, conditioned it and it's all done, ready for use. But before it goes out the door, you give it a once over with a product that has mineral oil in it. What mineral oil is great for on leather is it gives it a nice shine and a "finished" look to the piece. Which is why you will often find it in some commercial conditioning products along with better leather conditioning ingredients.

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

[deboardp]

29 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

I like your rant. It's blunt, factual, and informative. This is what I was hoping to read from you. There's a lot of confusing information "out there", but you sermons to have the basics well-understood, which is why I wanted you to write it out. Thanks! Clarity!

[deboardp]

You SEEM , not sermons...

[ScottWolf]

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

[chuck123wapati]

42 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

cite the actual science you reference and I'll read it.

[chuck123wapati]

i can pour mineral oil on leather and watch it, it soaks in try it.

[deboardp]

52 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

I think we all forget that fossil fuels are decomposed trees, vegetation, animals and all things that lived and died and became goo, and eventually became oil. Humanity has developed industrial civilization by using this oil, changing it for different purposes, which is quite clever and also quite over my head. The chemical processes used to change the chemical formulas of raw fossil fuels is mind-boggling. I graduated from a pre-med curriculum, which included multiple semesters of general chemistry, biochemistry, and organic chemistry, and really, it's mind-boggling. It's difficult to argue that fossil fuels are not natural, but the products of convoluted, complex, complicated chemical processes that turn - what's the word for raw oil - it into something that could be argued is not natural. I just want to know what works best to make my leather soft to the tender bones of the feet, makes it beautiful, smell good (smell like leather) stay strong forever, and make people want to buy my sandals. 

If we put a small puddle of mineral oil on a piece of leather, and the leather soaks it up, the puddle disappears, then the leather obviously did that. We can't say it didn't do that. But SUP said that it doesn't affect her leather long-term. She thinks it's too thin and it either evaporates or runs out, and her leather gets stiff. She has to repeat the process frequently. I think that's what she said. So a product is needed that doesn't run out, doesn't evaporate, something that is sticky, sort of like, well, grease. I think this is why leather conditioner for leather saddles is called saddler's grease. Some heat is used, warm water is used to open the pores, the grease is rubbed into all exposed surfaces of the leather, and human elbow grease is required. It's not a quick rub on to the surface and we're done. It's worked in, created heat from the rubbing, the leather is already warm from the water, and as the water evaporates during this process, the grease takes its place. The fibers don't absorb the grease, as far as I have heard, but they are become packed in it, surrounded by it, coated entirely on the surfaces of their structure, so that when the human exerts forces on the leather, the leather fibers can slide easily against each other, which we call being flexible, pliant, soft, etc. 

So, I am convinced that the centuries old formula of saddler's grease is basically correct. Fats and waxes are the right things for leather conditioner. Leather is not alive, it's simply the skeleton of skin (totally incorrect A&P term, haha). It's the structure of what used to be cow skin, or whatever animal it's from. It won't decompose further when wet. At least not quickly. I think certainly it will decompose if left on the ground. Won't it? I don't know. Therefore, I am happy to report that my lanolin arrived today, and my tallow is supposed to arrive this evening, and I have enough wax to make a small sample in my small pot. Plus, I am good friends with the monk who runs the candle shop that uses genuine beeswax at my church's monastery where I go to church (Greek Orthodox, Genuine Orthodox Christians of America). I know he will lay some wax on me if I ask nice.

the lanolin has a nice smell! 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[chuck123wapati]

3 minutes ago, deboardp said:

I think we all forget that fossil fuels are decomposed trees, vegetation, animals and all things that lived and died and became goo, and eventually became oil. Humanity has developed industrial civilization by using this oil, changing it for different purposes, which is quite clever and also quite over my head. The chemical processes used to change the chemical formulas of raw fossil fuels is mind-boggling. I graduated from a pre-med curriculum, which included multiple semesters of general chemistry, biochemistry, and organic chemistry, and really, it's mind-boggling. But it's difficult to argue that fossil fuels are not natural, but the products of convoluted, complex, complicated chemical processes that turn - what's the word for raw oil - it into something that could be argued is not natural. I just want to know what works best to make my leather soft to the tender bones of the feet, makes it beautiful, smell good (smell like leather) stay strong forever, and make people want to buy my sandals. 

If we put a small puddle of mineral oil on a piece of leather, and the leather soaks it up, the puddle disappears, then the leather obviously did that. We can't say it didn't do that. But SUP said that it doesn't affect her leather long-term. She thinks it's too thin and it either evaporates or runs out, and her leather gets stiff. She has to repeat the process frequently. I think that's what she said. So a product is needed that doesn't run out, doesn't evaporate, something that is sticky, sort of like, well, grease. I think this is why leather conditioner for leather saddles is called saddler's grease. Some heat is used, warm water is used to open the pores, the grease is rubbed into all exposed surfaces of the leather, and human elbow grease is required. It's not a quick rub on to the surface and we're done. It's worked in, created heat from the rubbing, the leather is already warm from the water, and as the water evaporates during this process, the grease takes its place. The fibers don't absorb the grease, as far as I have heard, but they are become packed in it, surrounded by it, coated entirely on the surfaces of their structure, so that when the human exerts forces on the leather, the leather fibers can slide easily against each other, which we call being flexible, pliant, soft, etc. 

So, I am convinced that the centuries old formula of saddler's grease is basically correct. Fats and waxes are the right things for leather conditioner. Leather is not alive, it's simply the skeleton of skin (totally incorrect A&P term, haha). It's the structure of what used to be cow skin, or whatever animal it's from. It won't decompose further when wet. At least not quickly. I think certainly it will decompose if left on the ground. Won't it? I don't know. Therefore, I am happy to report that my lanolin arrived today, and my tallow is supposed to arrive this evening, and I have enough wax to make a small sample in my small pot. Plus, I am good friends with the monk who runs the candle shop that uses genuine beeswax at my church's monastery where I go to church (Greek Orthodox, Genuine Orthodox Christians of America). I know he will lay some wax on me if I ask nice.

the lanolin has a nice smell! 

 

well said friend. i will add hand rubbed is due to the fact that leather can be cooked and ruined if over heated to much Even high heat of a hair dryer can damage it if left on to long. Good luck with you sandal project and god bless.

[deboardp]

Thank you!  May God bless you, too!

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[SUP]

Very true @deboardp

About applying wax oil mixtures to damp leather, how does that work?. The water resistant effect of the wax-oil mixture will work both ways is it not?  It will prevent water being absorbed into the finished leather but will it not also prevent any water evaporating from damp leather? 

 

 

[deboardp]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

Very true @deboardp

About applying wax oil mixtures to damp leather, how does that work?. The water resistant effect of the wax-oil mixture will work both ways is it not?  It will prevent water being absorbed into the finished leather but will it not also prevent any water evaporating from damp leather? 

 

 

I don't know of wax oil mixtures. Oil is liquid by definition. Wax and fat is what I am using, both are solids, and lanolin is missing something that is required for a substance to be called a fat, but it's solid and fat-like. So, my leather conditioner does not have any oil in it. Just wax, tallow, and lanolin. I am essentially making my version of old English saddler's grease. I'm also going to follow the procedure that unicornleather (last seen here in 2020) wrote down for us in his post here at leatherworkers.net: leather conditioner.odt

The procedure calls for wetting the leather with warm water and then rubbing the grease into all the surfaces of the leather, front, back, edges. I read it somewhere, that warm water causes leather to open its pores, thus the hand-rubbing and massaging of the grease is forced into these pores, is pushed into them. The rubbing creates heat, which helps the grease to get thinner and go farther into the pores and spaces between the fibers. I suppose that the grease and the water can mingle, mix, and maybe become a homogeneous compound.  I'm eating homemade pea soup as I type this, and I put a chunk of butter in it, and it has joined the soup, it's not separate anymore. Would it separate if I put in the fridge? Would the butter rise to the top? I think I recall refrigerating things and finding later that the fat had risen to the top and made a cap over the food. I'm not going to put the leather in the fridge, but eventually I will stop rubbing it and it will cool off. The water will evaporate, but the grease will not evaporate. It will stay in the poors, against the fibers, surrounding them. The fibers will be packed, like wheel bearings in an axle are packed with greasThe leather industry calls this stuffing rather than packing. The industry uses huge drums, which are rotating vats, and they use hot water, and it's like a pea soup for leather. The leather sides get soaked with the stuffing, thoroughly, through and through. Later, when the sides dry out, the water evaporates, and the grease stays in the leather.

Oil does evaporate. The evaporation rate depends on its viscosity. I think fats and greases and waxes don't evaporate much if at all, and they don't mix well with water, if at all. Although my butter does well in pea soup. The oil industry alters oil to make solvents, and those things evaporate really fast, you can watch them evaporate, some are so fast. I'd quote a name here, but my memory can't access it. The most common solvent in chemistry processes is... (I'll ask Google) ... water, Google says... hold on... I got a LIST of them, gee whiz, and forgot the name after reading it! ... ACETONE! It evaporates really really fast. 

The problem with saddler's grease and water - well it's not really a problem - the thing about water and saddler's grease is that it's not exactly a solution, where the solute (grease) and solvent (water) make a solution, where the two parts are not visible under a microscope, but it's more like a suspension, where the two mix and seem to be like a solution, but they are not. The grease is in smaller pieces because of the heat and pressure of fingers pushing on it, so the water can easily evaporate, leaving the grease. The water and grease are probably a mixture more than a solution, grease suspended in the water, or mixing with it, maybe simply floating down the stream on the surface of it, little bits of grease floating on top, the streams between the pores. Yeah, small streams. If we got a microscope we could maybe study these streams. Would we find itty bitty fishes?? Just hypothetically, about the microscopes. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[ScottWolf]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

i can pour mineral oil on leather and watch it, it soaks in try it.

Why would someone  pour mineral oil directly onto a piece of leather? In what instance would anyone pour mineral oil directly onto. a piece of leather they were working on? Is that how it's used in making anything of leather by pouring MO directly on the item? The answer is no in all three instances. It's simply not used that way nor did I presume that anyone would think that is how it was being discussed in it being used when discussing absorption. MO is typically used in products containing other ingredients, such as beeswax, lanolin, tallow, etc.. As deboardp  just mentioned above about SUPs comments, MO doesn't persist long on a piece of leather after application. I think we are more in agreement than you think on MO from a common sense use standpoint.

As for a source, I will allow you to do your own research, as at this point, even if I cited sources, I think you'd want to argue against them. So don't take my word for it, research it yourself if you're open to information.

[deboardp]

2 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

Why would someone  pour mineral oil directly onto a piece of leather? In what instance would anyone pour mineral oil directly onto. a piece of leather they were working on? Is that how it's used in making anything of leather by pouring MO directly on the item? The answer is no in all three instances. It's simply not used that way nor did I presume that anyone would think that is how it was being discussed in it being used when discussing absorption. MO is typically used in products containing other ingredients, such as beeswax, lanolin, tallow, etc.. As deboardp  just mentioned above about SUPs comments, MO doesn't persist long on a piece of leather after application. I think we are more in agreement than you think on MO from a common sense use standpoint.

As for a source, I will allow you to do your own research, as at this point, even if I cited sources, I think you'd want to argue against them. So don't take my word for it, research it yourself if you're open to information.

He was checking your statement that leather doesn't absorb MO. 

Take a breath Scott. It's not about you. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[ScottWolf]

2 minutes ago, deboardp said:

He was checking your statement that leather doesn't absorb MO. 

Take a breath Scott. It's not about you. 

I am simply trying to share information based on my experience researching ingredients used in the making of leather conditioner(s), making them, and using many variations of it on a very regular basis. Do with it what you will.

[deboardp]

Just now, ScottWolf said:

I am simply trying to share information based on my experience researching ingredients used in the making of leather conditioner(s), making them, and using many variations of it on a very regular basis. Do with it what you will.

Nobody is rejecting you. 

Maybe ask Chuck if he used vegetable tanned leather.   is that what you used? Leathers with finishes probably won't absorb mineral oil, but veg tan leather will. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with our personalities and characters personally. It's just science. What works, what effect does this have if we do this. 

I think you might be using something other than vegetable tanned leather to support your observation that MO stays on the surface. I've heard there's oil tanned leather which I know nothing about. I suppose MO might stay on the surface of that type of leather. Surely there's an explanation for the discrepancy between your observation and chuck's. I haven't poured MO on a scrap piece of leather like chuck surely did, and I'm not going to. If i poured any kind of oil on a scrap of my leather sides i know it will soak in immediately. That's the nature of veg tan. There's no oil, fat or wax anywhere in it. Everything was removed during tanning. 

[deboardp]

As a remodel contractor I occasionally installed butcher block counter tops. To protect them from food and stains I finished then with food grade mineral oil. I would put it on the wood and using microfiber cloth I would rub it into the wood until it was well absorbed. I did this the next day and the next. That wood absorbed a lot of oil. If wood will absorb it, vegetable tanned leather will inhale it, as it is way more porous than wood. 

To finish here, are you using liquid mineral oil. Vaseline is closely related to MO, but it is solid. If you put that on veg tan leather it won't absorb, probably. Are you using liquid or solid? Can you post a picture of what you're using, and a picture of the leather you're using, before and after applying the MO?

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

Why would someone  pour mineral oil directly onto a piece of leather? In what instance would anyone pour mineral oil directly onto. a piece of leather they were working on?

Only to show you it does migrate through leather just as any other light oil will and to test its actual effect on leather over a given time, science remember.

I'm not here to argue but I'm also not here to give or receive misinformation.

lol Don't say follow the science if you have none to follow and don't pretend I cant understand it or immediately not accept it as your excuse for not posting it. No offence but that's kind of lame. I've read plenty of science studies in my day and have no problem reading more. I also have the ability to change my mind, something my wife taught me years ago.

I already am doing research my friend as well as several people on the forum. in fact mineral oil is one or maybe more of the test pieces.  I'll post a link here so you can add your conditioners or any solution you would care to add. The intention is to actually learn something our great great grand parents knew as common knowledge. This research is from both side of the "fence" as you call it and is ongoing for years so a couple months between when you started and we did wont bother the results. Pleas add to the conversation and come join for some sciency fun!!!

 

[SUP]

 

@deboardp 'oil-tanned' is actually a misnomer. Oil-tanned leather is actually chrome-tanned leather that is, post-tanning and dyeing, stuffed with fish oils and other oils and fats  in some process that makes it soft and rich and pretty water-resistant. It is lovely and a favourite type of leather for me. 

12 hours ago, deboardp said:

I've heard there's oil tanned leather which I know nothing about. I suppose MO might stay on the surface of that type of leather. Surely there's an explanation for the discrepancy between your observation and chuck's

I just dumped some mineral oil on several pieces of oil-tanned leather - different sources - and they all absorb the oil perfectly well. The only leather that does not absorb any oil, mineral oil or any other, is the leather with plastics on top. They do not  absorb anything, oils, waxes, whatever. 

About waxing damp leather, I should have realized that the fats applied and the water in the damp leather would form an emulsion from which the water could evaporate.  I think I will try it. I have some old, clean sides which are rather dry. that would be perfect for this. 

12 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

I am simply trying to share information based on my experience researching ingredients used in the making of leather conditioner(s), making them, and using many variations of it on a very regular basis. Do with it what you will.

@ScottWolf It is good to hear about people's experiences. We all have garnered information from hearing about other people's experiences over the decades as well as our own research  (it is such a simple matter these days and I suspect most people do plenty of it) and of course, personal experiences. People here have decades of experience that they speak from, knowledge which is very valuable. A large number of people make their own leather conditioners  as well, though they do not much talk about it. 

Each person has his/her own take on what is good and bad, and really, seeing how people from different parts of the world and even parts of a large country, have different opinions, sometimes conflicting, sometimes not, how can anyone really definitively say that what one says is right and everyone else not? Even research publications - anyone who has any research experience knows to look at every aspect very carefully before fully believing it.

But having different opinions is not an attempt to offend and should not be taken as such. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by SUP

[SUP]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:11 AM, chuck123wapati said:

From my feeble knowledge and experience of brain tanning the basic idea is to remove all the stuff inside the leather except the fibers, I can find big words in my book for "stuff" if you need them,  then the stuff inside is replaced by the oils or greases. this allows the leather fibers to flex and move against each other easier which we see and feel as softness or suppleness. the fibers don't change they are just lubricated. As for hydration i think that leather being porous takes in and holds only what humidity will allow, that's why it doesn't stay wet I don't think you can hydrate leather to a given state, say 10% because it will simply evaporate to match the natural humidity and that is why you use oils lol they don't dry as quickly. Yea those aren't true conditioners imo if they don't work and go completely into the fiber structure of the leather, leather has to change color somewhat to be conditioned correctly again IMO.

@chuck123wapati  Exactly!

@ScottWolf as @chuck123wapati says, bring along your individual ingredients and you are welcome to join our experiment. Individual ingredients. like the rest of us are using though, since that is what we are testing. We are not testing conditioner mixes. That will take us off-track.

[deboardp]

7 hours ago, SUP said:

About waxing damp leather, I should have realized that the fats applied and the water in the damp leather would form an emulsion 

An emulsion. That's how the water can easily evaporate. The water acts as a medium to help the fats/wax/lanolin compound get into the leather and then exits, leaving the compound in the leather. Brilliant!

My tallow came. It smells like hamburger fat, is yellow like lanolin. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[deboardp]

I was thinking about the recipe just now. The tallow smells of hamburger grease, and the pork lard probably smells of pork chops, and I'm thinking, why do  i want to put this stuff in my leather??? OK, it's fats, but it stinks! According to old English saddler's grease recipes, the cod liver oil is supposed to restore the smell of leather. Is that because it cancels out the mIteat stink? Sheesh.  

So, I want to use things that don't stink or overpower the natural scent of vegetable tanned leather because that stuff smells wonderful.  Therefore, I'm shelving the animal fats for now. When the Norwegian odorless cod liver oil arrives, I'll shelve it as well.

Therefore, I have beeswax, lanolin, macadamia nut oil on the way. Is there another fat I could use instead of the ones from animals? I prefer to not use man-made fats, and I don't have a reason I can articulate, yet. My primitive thinking on this is to put cup portion of lanolin in the small pot over a low heat, add half a portion of beeswax, I guess by volume, and see how it melts, maybe a couple tablespoons of macadamia oil... If it all gets along with each other, then I'll put some in these tins I got from Bulk Apothecary bulkapothecary.com where I also bought the lanolin. 

Chuck, can you share your recipe for conditioner? You seem to know about it, and I'm interested. What kind of projects/products do you use it on?

I think beeswax, lanolin, and macadamia nut oil might smell really nice, on top of the leather smell. I worry about oils going rancid, so I googled, "will macadamia nut oil go rancid in leather" and figured, ha, nobody will have an answer to that!  I was surprised to see that this is the very top result of the google search: click here Fascinating. I read the OP's post and will return now to read more. The target audience is for leather workers with organic chemistry background or a scientific bent, which is us, since we're interested in making a concoction that has chemical properties.

[deboardp]

I copied and will paste here a post by TinkerTailor from Nov. 26, 2015, from the thread on leatherworkers.net. It's fascinating and has a link to a 217 page digital book from the past, that has been preserved for us.

From TinkerTailor:

I got alot out of this book: The recipes in it obviously take ph into account based on application.

Get out your bucket of spermaceti, your rape oil, and that stash of caoutchouc, Its time to make some leather dressing! Did you remember the brown sugar?

I give you:

"The manufacture of lubricants, shoe polishes and leather dressings"

https://ia600404.us.archive.org/1/items/manufacturelubr00brungoog/manufacturelubr00brungoog.pdf

All page numbers i list are pdf page numbers, not the original page numbers.

Page 29 of the pdf, they talk about the ph of oils and how it changes as it rancidifys due to the presence of free fatty acids forming. It also clarifys what are called neutral oils, which are oils that do not have the free fatty acids in a fresh state which change the ph, such as rapeseed(canola) oil as well as olive oil. They imply that some oils have the free fatty acids when fresh and are unsuitable for use with metal due to corrosion issuesdue to Ph. I would imagine the same thing applys to leather. They also get into drying vs non-drying oils, linseed oil, for eg, is a drying oil and is not very suitable for a lubricant and presumably a leather dressing, while it is used in recipes for leather varnish.

Page 102 is a writeup on neetsfoot oil and a comment about how many sewing machine and clock oils are bleached neetsfoot repackaged in tiny bottles and marked up.

pg 119 is the recipes for the fine machine oils. They also talk about freezing neetsfoot and straining out the oil that is still liquid to purify it. Also bleaching it in the sun using violet glass.....Had they discovered uv treatment? They did notice purple glass bleached it better for some reason.

Page 114 is an interesting recipe for leather belt dressing to prevent slip made from ~90% castor oil and 10% tallow.

Page 142 is where the good stuff starts. The stuff relating to leather. You will notice that many of the recipes for shoe polishes etc contain sulfuric acid or soda, Presumably to make them strong enough for a man but Ph balanced for a woman.........Or is that deodorant?....rabbit holes are fun.........squirrel

Page 148 talks about ant-acid boot leather varnish .....acid free....The effects of ph on leather were DEFINITELY known at this time.

I have from my reading determined that as a leather treatment, tallows are the best treatment for lubricating the fibers and preserving the leather for a long time, however they are hardest to apply due to being mostly solid at room temp. Tannerys hot stuff tallows and waxes to make that expensive horween stuff. Temperature and exposure time are needed for the leather to take up the fats fully. These processes are out of the reach of the average user as they require special equipment and machinery and is better done in bigger batches of hides. The tallow lubricates, and the wax protects. Both are very long lasting before breakdown, if it even happens.

We as leatherworkers try to approach this on raw leather but without the prolonged heating and tumbling. Oils are the best solution to make leather treatments that are easy to apply. In order to apply the harder waxes and tallow, we often mix then with thinner oils to make easily appliable pastes and cremes.

In my opinion,Neetsfoot oil has won over many as the oil of choice for a few reasons:

1: The general availability and cheapness of neetsfoot oil as well as its suitability for leather in that it is non-drying, long lasting, and has a long shelf life

2: It is easy to apply. It can be used to make waxes and tallows thinner and possible to apply at room temp

3: The US army chose it.

4: It works in most of the situations leather is used as an adequate dressing.

5: Grampa used it, and so did his grampa......so did stohlman and some other saddler guy..

Edited January 1 by deboardp

[deboardp]

Holy Smoke! Somebody in Paris, France is making and selling a conditioner made with the same ingredients I am thinking of using! Lanolin, beeswax, and macadamia nut oil!  Look at this!