DIY leather conditioner

[ScottWolf]

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol I'm sorry to dis agree human skin and leather are two very different things, mineral oil reacts differently to both, one is living tissue is meant to keep unknown substances out of your body and protect you. Leather is tanned and is porous because of the tanning process and has lost that ability it can no longer keep unknown substances out so your comparing apples and oranges. If you don't think mineral oil absorbs completely simply put some on a piece of leather it only takes a minute or two to see that's incorrect. It is however a light oil and that in itself is why it isn't used alone as a liquor for leather, none of the lighter oils are used that way but mixed with something heavier, leather liquors or conditioners are susceptible to gravity, heat and all natures quirks so lighter oils would simply seek natural equilibrium and migrate away if not bound by heavier greases or waxes.

 The anti fossil fuel/cc industry and food industry has more to do with the bad press of mineral oil than how it actually reacts. It is a natural product produced from "natural resources", that's fact, olive oil is refined as are most any vegetable or animal oils also. If we were truly and honestly trying to be good stewards of nature, like they are training our kids, we would eat the edible oils in the raw unprocessed foods they come from and use the non edibles for leather and lubrication. But instead we buy peanut butter, which is now a waste product from a refining process, with soy bean oil added so we can buy peanut oil for 20 bucks a gallon. The Olive oil BS is even more ridiculous. Sorry for the rant on idiocrasy.

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

[chuck123wapati]

42 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

cite the actual science you reference and I'll read it.

[chuck123wapati]

i can pour mineral oil on leather and watch it, it soaks in try it.

[deboardp]

52 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

You don't have to believe me, but you can do some simple research and you'll find that as far as absorption and the forming of a barrier when using  mineral oil isn't my opinion. If you want to disagree with the science, by all means you do you. Do I use it in my DIY recipe and on my leather products? Yes I do, as I stated, as a finishing product, not purely as a conditioning ingredient, as it really isnt a great ingredient when compared to all the other ingredients one can use for conditioning.

I see I've touched a trigger point, not my intent. I don't care which side of the fence one sits on when it comes to the thinking about mineral oil being natural or not. I just know that some people "do" and some "do not". But at the end of the day, there are quite a few commercially available leather conditioning products out there that have some amount/ratio of mineral oil in them that most people are oblivious to.

I think we all forget that fossil fuels are decomposed trees, vegetation, animals and all things that lived and died and became goo, and eventually became oil. Humanity has developed industrial civilization by using this oil, changing it for different purposes, which is quite clever and also quite over my head. The chemical processes used to change the chemical formulas of raw fossil fuels is mind-boggling. I graduated from a pre-med curriculum, which included multiple semesters of general chemistry, biochemistry, and organic chemistry, and really, it's mind-boggling. It's difficult to argue that fossil fuels are not natural, but the products of convoluted, complex, complicated chemical processes that turn - what's the word for raw oil - it into something that could be argued is not natural. I just want to know what works best to make my leather soft to the tender bones of the feet, makes it beautiful, smell good (smell like leather) stay strong forever, and make people want to buy my sandals. 

If we put a small puddle of mineral oil on a piece of leather, and the leather soaks it up, the puddle disappears, then the leather obviously did that. We can't say it didn't do that. But SUP said that it doesn't affect her leather long-term. She thinks it's too thin and it either evaporates or runs out, and her leather gets stiff. She has to repeat the process frequently. I think that's what she said. So a product is needed that doesn't run out, doesn't evaporate, something that is sticky, sort of like, well, grease. I think this is why leather conditioner for leather saddles is called saddler's grease. Some heat is used, warm water is used to open the pores, the grease is rubbed into all exposed surfaces of the leather, and human elbow grease is required. It's not a quick rub on to the surface and we're done. It's worked in, created heat from the rubbing, the leather is already warm from the water, and as the water evaporates during this process, the grease takes its place. The fibers don't absorb the grease, as far as I have heard, but they are become packed in it, surrounded by it, coated entirely on the surfaces of their structure, so that when the human exerts forces on the leather, the leather fibers can slide easily against each other, which we call being flexible, pliant, soft, etc. 

So, I am convinced that the centuries old formula of saddler's grease is basically correct. Fats and waxes are the right things for leather conditioner. Leather is not alive, it's simply the skeleton of skin (totally incorrect A&P term, haha). It's the structure of what used to be cow skin, or whatever animal it's from. It won't decompose further when wet. At least not quickly. I think certainly it will decompose if left on the ground. Won't it? I don't know. Therefore, I am happy to report that my lanolin arrived today, and my tallow is supposed to arrive this evening, and I have enough wax to make a small sample in my small pot. Plus, I am good friends with the monk who runs the candle shop that uses genuine beeswax at my church's monastery where I go to church (Greek Orthodox, Genuine Orthodox Christians of America). I know he will lay some wax on me if I ask nice.

the lanolin has a nice smell! 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[chuck123wapati]

3 minutes ago, deboardp said:

I think we all forget that fossil fuels are decomposed trees, vegetation, animals and all things that lived and died and became goo, and eventually became oil. Humanity has developed industrial civilization by using this oil, changing it for different purposes, which is quite clever and also quite over my head. The chemical processes used to change the chemical formulas of raw fossil fuels is mind-boggling. I graduated from a pre-med curriculum, which included multiple semesters of general chemistry, biochemistry, and organic chemistry, and really, it's mind-boggling. But it's difficult to argue that fossil fuels are not natural, but the products of convoluted, complex, complicated chemical processes that turn - what's the word for raw oil - it into something that could be argued is not natural. I just want to know what works best to make my leather soft to the tender bones of the feet, makes it beautiful, smell good (smell like leather) stay strong forever, and make people want to buy my sandals. 

If we put a small puddle of mineral oil on a piece of leather, and the leather soaks it up, the puddle disappears, then the leather obviously did that. We can't say it didn't do that. But SUP said that it doesn't affect her leather long-term. She thinks it's too thin and it either evaporates or runs out, and her leather gets stiff. She has to repeat the process frequently. I think that's what she said. So a product is needed that doesn't run out, doesn't evaporate, something that is sticky, sort of like, well, grease. I think this is why leather conditioner for leather saddles is called saddler's grease. Some heat is used, warm water is used to open the pores, the grease is rubbed into all exposed surfaces of the leather, and human elbow grease is required. It's not a quick rub on to the surface and we're done. It's worked in, created heat from the rubbing, the leather is already warm from the water, and as the water evaporates during this process, the grease takes its place. The fibers don't absorb the grease, as far as I have heard, but they are become packed in it, surrounded by it, coated entirely on the surfaces of their structure, so that when the human exerts forces on the leather, the leather fibers can slide easily against each other, which we call being flexible, pliant, soft, etc. 

So, I am convinced that the centuries old formula of saddler's grease is basically correct. Fats and waxes are the right things for leather conditioner. Leather is not alive, it's simply the skeleton of skin (totally incorrect A&P term, haha). It's the structure of what used to be cow skin, or whatever animal it's from. It won't decompose further when wet. At least not quickly. I think certainly it will decompose if left on the ground. Won't it? I don't know. Therefore, I am happy to report that my lanolin arrived today, and my tallow is supposed to arrive this evening, and I have enough wax to make a small sample in my small pot. Plus, I am good friends with the monk who runs the candle shop that uses genuine beeswax at my church's monastery where I go to church (Greek Orthodox, Genuine Orthodox Christians of America). I know he will lay some wax on me if I ask nice.

the lanolin has a nice smell! 

 

well said friend. i will add hand rubbed is due to the fact that leather can be cooked and ruined if over heated to much Even high heat of a hair dryer can damage it if left on to long. Good luck with you sandal project and god bless.

[deboardp]

Thank you!  May God bless you, too!

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[SUP]

Very true @deboardp

About applying wax oil mixtures to damp leather, how does that work?. The water resistant effect of the wax-oil mixture will work both ways is it not?  It will prevent water being absorbed into the finished leather but will it not also prevent any water evaporating from damp leather? 

 

 

[deboardp]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

Very true @deboardp

About applying wax oil mixtures to damp leather, how does that work?. The water resistant effect of the wax-oil mixture will work both ways is it not?  It will prevent water being absorbed into the finished leather but will it not also prevent any water evaporating from damp leather? 

 

 

I don't know of wax oil mixtures. Oil is liquid by definition. Wax and fat is what I am using, both are solids, and lanolin is missing something that is required for a substance to be called a fat, but it's solid and fat-like. So, my leather conditioner does not have any oil in it. Just wax, tallow, and lanolin. I am essentially making my version of old English saddler's grease. I'm also going to follow the procedure that unicornleather (last seen here in 2020) wrote down for us in his post here at leatherworkers.net: leather conditioner.odt

The procedure calls for wetting the leather with warm water and then rubbing the grease into all the surfaces of the leather, front, back, edges. I read it somewhere, that warm water causes leather to open its pores, thus the hand-rubbing and massaging of the grease is forced into these pores, is pushed into them. The rubbing creates heat, which helps the grease to get thinner and go farther into the pores and spaces between the fibers. I suppose that the grease and the water can mingle, mix, and maybe become a homogeneous compound.  I'm eating homemade pea soup as I type this, and I put a chunk of butter in it, and it has joined the soup, it's not separate anymore. Would it separate if I put in the fridge? Would the butter rise to the top? I think I recall refrigerating things and finding later that the fat had risen to the top and made a cap over the food. I'm not going to put the leather in the fridge, but eventually I will stop rubbing it and it will cool off. The water will evaporate, but the grease will not evaporate. It will stay in the poors, against the fibers, surrounding them. The fibers will be packed, like wheel bearings in an axle are packed with greasThe leather industry calls this stuffing rather than packing. The industry uses huge drums, which are rotating vats, and they use hot water, and it's like a pea soup for leather. The leather sides get soaked with the stuffing, thoroughly, through and through. Later, when the sides dry out, the water evaporates, and the grease stays in the leather.

Oil does evaporate. The evaporation rate depends on its viscosity. I think fats and greases and waxes don't evaporate much if at all, and they don't mix well with water, if at all. Although my butter does well in pea soup. The oil industry alters oil to make solvents, and those things evaporate really fast, you can watch them evaporate, some are so fast. I'd quote a name here, but my memory can't access it. The most common solvent in chemistry processes is... (I'll ask Google) ... water, Google says... hold on... I got a LIST of them, gee whiz, and forgot the name after reading it! ... ACETONE! It evaporates really really fast. 

The problem with saddler's grease and water - well it's not really a problem - the thing about water and saddler's grease is that it's not exactly a solution, where the solute (grease) and solvent (water) make a solution, where the two parts are not visible under a microscope, but it's more like a suspension, where the two mix and seem to be like a solution, but they are not. The grease is in smaller pieces because of the heat and pressure of fingers pushing on it, so the water can easily evaporate, leaving the grease. The water and grease are probably a mixture more than a solution, grease suspended in the water, or mixing with it, maybe simply floating down the stream on the surface of it, little bits of grease floating on top, the streams between the pores. Yeah, small streams. If we got a microscope we could maybe study these streams. Would we find itty bitty fishes?? Just hypothetically, about the microscopes. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp

[ScottWolf]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

i can pour mineral oil on leather and watch it, it soaks in try it.

Why would someone  pour mineral oil directly onto a piece of leather? In what instance would anyone pour mineral oil directly onto. a piece of leather they were working on? Is that how it's used in making anything of leather by pouring MO directly on the item? The answer is no in all three instances. It's simply not used that way nor did I presume that anyone would think that is how it was being discussed in it being used when discussing absorption. MO is typically used in products containing other ingredients, such as beeswax, lanolin, tallow, etc.. As deboardp  just mentioned above about SUPs comments, MO doesn't persist long on a piece of leather after application. I think we are more in agreement than you think on MO from a common sense use standpoint.

As for a source, I will allow you to do your own research, as at this point, even if I cited sources, I think you'd want to argue against them. So don't take my word for it, research it yourself if you're open to information.

[deboardp]

2 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

Why would someone  pour mineral oil directly onto a piece of leather? In what instance would anyone pour mineral oil directly onto. a piece of leather they were working on? Is that how it's used in making anything of leather by pouring MO directly on the item? The answer is no in all three instances. It's simply not used that way nor did I presume that anyone would think that is how it was being discussed in it being used when discussing absorption. MO is typically used in products containing other ingredients, such as beeswax, lanolin, tallow, etc.. As deboardp  just mentioned above about SUPs comments, MO doesn't persist long on a piece of leather after application. I think we are more in agreement than you think on MO from a common sense use standpoint.

As for a source, I will allow you to do your own research, as at this point, even if I cited sources, I think you'd want to argue against them. So don't take my word for it, research it yourself if you're open to information.

He was checking your statement that leather doesn't absorb MO. 

Take a breath Scott. It's not about you. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by deboardp