29K51 won't pickup bottom thread

[Ken2]

Hi,  This is my first time posting here, but I have read just about everything on this forum about the 29 class machines.  I have a 29K51 I completely disassembled, cleaned, relubed, and reassembled.  It runs nice and easy.  I have double checked the shuttle timing and am using new needles.  But I cannot get it to pickup the bottom thread to make a stitch.  So here is what I have;

Using Schmetz #14 needles (pic attached) I sized the needle according to the help tip on needle sizing elsewhere on this forum.

Using C&C Upolstry Thread (pic attached)

Have adjusted the timing according to owners manual

Question, are there different length needles.  It seems when I move the needle down slightly in its holder, it will pick up the bottom thread occassionally, but not consistently. If the needle is placed all the way up in the holder, then it never picks up the bottom thread. I have tried different threads and needle sizes to no avail.  What thread works best in these machines and what needle size would you use with it?  I want to patch shoes mostly. What do I need to do?  Give me some things to try please.  Thanks,

Ken

[CowboyBob]

Wrong needle,these are home machine needles & are approx 1/4" too short,you need to buy 135x16 needles.You shouldn't have any problem finding them,but if you do we have them in stock.

Edited February 22 by CowboyBob

[Ken2]

All,

I talked to Bob at Toledo Industrial and he is sending me some correct thread and needles for the machine.  Tracking says they should be here on Tuesday and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. 

On another note, I read in a blog somewhere(I tried to bookmark it but erased it instead so I have no idea where I saw this) there are plans or patterns for making an extension table for these machines.  They were orginally available when the machines were sold.  Does anybody have an idea where I could find such plans?  I am a pretty adept woodworker and am sure I could make it. 

Thanks,

Ken

[CowboyBob]

@Ken2 Here's a couple pics.You can lay a piece of cardboard on top of the arm & make a pattern.If I made this one I would of used some thin angle iron & 2 screws for the mounting tabs.

[Ken2]

That sure is a nice table.  Very nicely done!!  Looks like alot of room too.

Thanks,

Ken

[Ken2]

All, thanks to Bob Kovar for posting those pics of the extension table for the 29 series Singer machines.  There are other pics and drawings out there I found since my last post.  Some have measurements so if anybody wants them a google search will find them or contact me and I will direct you to them.

So, I received the thread and needles Bob recommended and finally had a chance to try them.  I got the machine to stitch correctly on a flat piece of leather from the back of an old glove.  At least it worked for about 2 inches.  But now it doesn't again and it won't stitch a shoe.  So any other hints anybody might have would be much appreciated.  I did notice a notch on one side of the needles and faced that towards the bobbin.  Also, set the clearance between needle and bobbin cartridge as very close. 

Will be awaiting more ideas.

Ken

[ljk]

The 29k51 has a hole in front of the base just at the top of the stencil.  Inside is a eccentric at the junction of the horizontal and vertical arm.  You may be able to adjust the hook with this eccentric.  If this doesn't work check y tube videos.

[Ken2]

Yep, I watched the UTubes on timing the needle and bobbin.  And I adjusted the eccentric according the the advice in the vids.  Still no help.  Must be something I am still missing.  Any more ideas would be appreciated.

[ljk]

Cheap ideas.   Shim ladder gears, 1mm brass shim stock cheap at NAPA.  Adjust the needle distance to hook,seen just above the foot. The eccentric can be adjusted by moving the revolving carrier on shaft at top of machine. There is a Y Tube video on this.Trim a needle and adjust up and down see if this works. Keep looking.  I have owned a bunch of 29s from a $25  29-4 to a $800 29k71  got them all to work. Review" ken's life" on needlebar.org. great video on 29k13.

[Ken2]

Do you have a link to the Utube video you refer to?

[Ken2]

Very little of the needlebar.org site works. 

Ken

[RockyAussie]

There are a lot of things that can cause mis stitching on these machines. I would like to see a close up picture of your thread path around the top tension discs and how you have the thread up  to the take up lever. I can not see any adjuster for the thread take up lever on your machine but that may be just the picture.

[Ken2]

Rocky,

I bring the thread from the grease cup, around the peg on the top of the head, then around the tension disks, then through the wire loop, then up and through the take up lever from the front, then down the shaft to the needle.  There is no adjustment for the take up lever as you can see in picture number 3. Hope the pictures help.

[Wizcrafts]

Have you inspected the paddle shaped thread control spring in the needle bar? It is slightly visible from the left side when you lower the needle bar to BDC. The top thread feeds through that spring. Its job is to hold the thread in place as the needle makes its down-up-down jog. After decades of use that spring may have been gouged by thread, or just weakened, or even became twisted, thus no longer able to press firmly against the thread to hold it in place. Sometimes, the thread even gouges a channel into the needle bar, behind the spring, causing it to have little effect on the thread security. Without that spring, the loop tends to dissolve before pick-off time.

Bob Kovar usually stocks the paddle springs and the tiny screws that secure it to the needle bar. He might even have a complete needle bar with the paddle spring attached. Replacing the spring calls for removing the needle bar. So, you may as well try to find a newer bar, complete with the paddle spring and a new needle clamping bracket.

If Bob doesn't have the parts, @shoepatcherprobably does. I get patcher parts from him too.

[Constabulary]

Has not to do with picking up the thread but what I noticed is that your Singer 29K51 has an arm lever from a very early Singer 29 that lacks the the adjuster for the thread take up lever. IIRC only the very early 29 came w/o this adjuster so your machine should have the adjuster shown in the below picture. However it should pick up the thread w/o this adjuster.

How is the condition of your shuttle hook, has it a sharp tip? Also, the needle holder can be moved sideways to bring the needle a bit closer to the hook.

Have you probably taken apart the gear box and not reassembled it correctly? That happens and the "drop out" gear box of the 29K51 is a bit special. I have restored only one single 29K51 (no longer own it) and there was no instructions for how to reassemble the gear box again so I did some trial and error and ended with the gear box and rack assembled like this - see 2nd picture - and it worked.

BTW - do you have manual for your machine?

One more question - how far did you take down the machine? Did you remove the top shaft or any of the cams on the top shaft?

 

Edited April 23 by Constabulary

[Bosko90]

On 4/23/2024 at 8:04 AM, Wizcrafts said:

Have you inspected the paddle shaped thread control spring in the needle bar? It is slightly visible from the left side when you lower the needle bar to BDC. The top thread feeds through that spring. Its job is to hold the thread in place as the needle makes its down-up-down jog. After decades of use that spring may have been gouged by thread, or just weakened, or even became twisted, thus no longer able to press firmly against the thread to hold it in place. Sometimes, the thread even gouges a channel into the needle bar, behind the spring, causing it to have little effect on the thread security. Without that spring, the loop tends to dissolve before pick-off time.

Bob Kovar usually stocks the paddle springs and the tiny screws that secure it to the needle bar. He might even have a complete needle bar with the paddle spring attached. Replacing the spring calls for removing the needle bar. So, you may as well try to find a newer bar, complete with the paddle spring and a new needle clamping bracket.

If Bob doesn't have the parts, @shoepatcherprobably does. I get patcher parts from him too.

How strong should this spring be? On my original, a channel was made by the thread. I ordered an aftermarket spring, which is apparently half as weak (even the thickness of the material is half of the original). It also took quite a bit of sanding to get it in place. I haven't tested it yet as I have quite a few other pieces to fix before then. Thanks!

[shoepatcher]

You have to grind the sides of the spring down so they do not stick out past the outside diameter of the needle bar.  I assume that is what you mean by a lot of sanding.  Also file down the grove in the needle bar cut out if here is a thread grove worn in it.

glenn

[Bosko90]

21 minutes ago, shoepatcher said:

You have to grind the sides of the spring down so they do not stick out past the outside diameter of the needle bar.  I assume that is what you mean by a lot of sanding.  Also file down the grove in the needle bar cut out if here is a thread grove worn in it.

glenn

Yes, I mean grinding. English is not my language. I was fix that shape and all parts is inside of needlebar diameter. But I don't know if the spring is strong enaugh. It is much weaker than original. 

[Constabulary]

not a too big issue, the spring just "holds" the thread. It should work with a weaker spring if not I may have a better one (I´ll email you later)

[Ken2]

Yes, I had the needle bar out and the spring removed all for cleaning.  The spring holds the thread fine.  Also, I did not remove the cross shaft, but cleaned the gears from the inspection holes.  Haven't done anything with the machine now for a couple weeks...other projects to do.  I did adjust the needle holder sideways but I think I need to do more with that.  Will post results when I get to it.

Thanks for all the thoughts.  I am open to considering anything.