Lining Sheath: Rough or Slick Side In?

[Gosut]

I might be finally ready to try that Bowie sheath that brought me to leatherworking. Rather than a frog, have decided to opt for a clip for inside the waistband carry. With this in mind, thinking of going with two thinner pieces of leather for the waistband side and sandwiching the back of the clip between them. That way I'd end up with the desired thickness and prevent the clip from scrubbing the knife. But this raises the question of gluing the rough sides together and having a slick side in the sheath or gluing rough to slick side and having a rough side inside the sheath for better retention.

Thoughts on this? 

[Mablung]

Fielder’s choice. Really just depends on whether you care deeply about keeping the finish of the blade pristine and unscratched. I assume you’re relying on friction for retention? As long as it’s molded properly and the welt is sized properly, flesh versus grain probably won’t make a big difference. It’ll be easier to cement the lining flesh side to flesh side. 

[bladegrinder]

You lost me at Bowie....and inside the waistband carry. how big a knife are we talking about and will you be able to sit down?

Edited May 31 by bladegrinder

[Mablung]

Now I’m imagining the OP sitting down while carrying Crocodile Dundee’s knife IWB. 

[Gosut]

8 hours ago, Mablung said:

Fielder’s choice. Really just depends on whether you care deeply about keeping the finish of the blade pristine and unscratched. I assume you’re relying on friction for retention? As long as it’s molded properly and the welt is sized properly, flesh versus grain probably won’t make a big difference. It’ll be easier to cement the lining flesh side to flesh side. 

Not really. Plan is to use a thumb break strap. Have a boot knife with one that works well. It, too has the side with the clip two thinner layers glued together, on the rough side. The knife fits loose with the only retention the thumb break strap. Just wondered if keeping the rough side in was better.

[Gosut]

8 hours ago, bladegrinder said:

You lost me at Bowie....and inside the waistband carry. how big a knife are we talking about and will you be able to sit down?

I think so. It has a 10" / 25 cm blade and my plan is for the handle to ride above the waistband. Basically, a boot knife style sheath, only larger. Plan is to carry it at the side. A pivot would work better, which is why I initially planned on a frog stud so I could try different configurations, but thinking this would be too thick for inside the waistband carry.

Why inside the waistband with the handle riding high? Only because I think it wouldn't have as much tendency to snag on things.

[Mablung]

13 minutes ago, Gosut said:

I think so. It has a 10" / 25 cm blade and my plan is for the handle to ride above the waistband. Basically, a boot knife style sheath, only larger. Plan is to carry it at the side. A pivot would work better, which is why I initially planned on a frog stud so I could try different configurations, but thinking this would be too thick for inside the waistband carry.

Why inside the waistband with the handle riding high? Only because I think it wouldn't have as much tendency to snag on things.

The blade itself is 10” long? I don’t think you’ll be sitting down with it IWB, whether at appendix position or at your side. At least not without the whole sheath riding up out of your pants. I would have enough trouble with my Glock 34-length pistol, let alone a 10”-blade knife. 

[Littlef]

I have the same concerns about trying to carry a 10" blade inside your pants.  That sounds uncomfortable, and very limiting in movement.  I'd recommend putting the knife in your pants, lined up how you are intending on carrying it, and just walk around for a couple minutes.  Try sitting in a chair, and try getting in and out of a car.  I'm sure you could do it, but I don't think it'll be pleasant or comfortable.

[chuck123wapati]

if your going to take the time and do two layers then glue rough to rough, make it pretty, make it a tight fit and you wont have problems. Realistically you will lose the knife because of the clip before it will ever fall out of the sheath un noticed. As other said I would rethink the iwb unless you are really skinny and real tall. 

[TomE]

A leather rougher/scratcher will prep the grain side for gluing if you need a strong bond to the grain.  The wire teeth are pointed and sharp to tear through the grain and create a suede like surface.  A wire brush doesn't do this.   I routinely rough up leather filler strips inserted into a rounded leather piece that is wet molded around the filler.  Roughing the leather is necessary to hold it together until the leather dries and can be sewn.  The larger rougher in the link below is a very sturdy tool.  You can find smaller roughers at lots leather crafting supply retailers.    https://sorrellnotionsandfindings.com/product/scratcher/

[Gosut]

21 hours ago, Littlef said:

I have the same concerns about trying to carry a 10" blade inside your pants.  That sounds uncomfortable, and very limiting in movement.  I'd recommend putting the knife in your pants, lined up how you are intending on carrying it, and just walk around for a couple minutes.  Try sitting in a chair, and try getting in and out of a car.  I'm sure you could do it, but I don't think it'll be pleasant or comfortable.

I did, first simply sticking inside my waist band. One period way of carrying a bowie was IWB with the frog stud resting on top. Clothing styles were different then and likely offered more security to the sheath. Came to the conclusion that this form of carry wasn't that secure. Main problem with my test was the blade being unsecured other than from waistband pressure. The ability to pivot makes it not as stiff and unwieldy. Same principle as on those big handheld radios we used to have that fit in a pivot attached to your belt. Pivoting let it move with the body. Other than that, it wasn't uncomfortable because it could pivot.

The problem is a clip isn't going to pivot much if at all. That's going to make it stiffer. Unfortunately, haven't come up with anything better. The modern pivot clips are for outside the waistband or belt and more bulky. Have thought about a sort of dangle method to both secure it and allow it to pivot, but don't know. All that is where the original frog stud idea came in where I could experiment without making a series of new sheaths, but now think that scheme may be unworkable. Not the frog part, but for securing inside the belt. Only idea I could come up with was to somehow modify a clip into a frog that attached to the waistband with the frog stud passing though it. The idea would be to let it pivot. but still keep it secure. But the key word here is "somehow modify.." Never had a clear idea on how.

21 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

if your going to take the time and do two layers then glue rough to rough, make it pretty, make it a tight fit and you wont have problems. Realistically you will lose the knife because of the clip before it will ever fall out of the sheath un noticed. As other said I would rethink the iwb unless you are really skinny and real tall. 

I haven't been skinny in years, but I am over 6' / 1.8m tall.

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Gosut said:

I did, first simply sticking inside my waist band. One period way of carrying a bowie was IWB with the frog stud resting on top. Clothing styles were different then and likely offered more security to the sheath. Came to the conclusion that this form of carry wasn't that secure. Main problem with my test was the blade being unsecured other than from waistband pressure. The ability to pivot makes it not as stiff and unwieldy. Same principle as on those big handheld radios we used to have that fit in a pivot attached to your belt. Pivoting let it move with the body. Other than that, it wasn't uncomfortable because it could pivot.

The problem is a clip isn't going to pivot much if at all. That's going to make it stiffer. Unfortunately, haven't come up with anything better. The modern pivot clips are for outside the waistband or belt and more bulky. Have thought about a sort of dangle method to both secure it and allow it to pivot, but don't know. All that is where the original frog stud idea came in where I could experiment without making a series of new sheaths, but now think that scheme may be unworkable. Not the frog part, but for securing inside the belt. Only idea I could come up with was to somehow modify a clip into a frog that attached to the waistband with the frog stud passing though it. The idea would be to let it pivot. but still keep it secure. But the key word here is "somehow modify.." Never had a clear idea on how.

I haven't been skinny in years, but I am over 6' / 1.8m tall.

here is a period pattern for an iwb sheath clothing styles were much different the pants had no belt loops and if so the person wore a belt for the pants and a gun/ equipment belt higher up. this pattern has one belt loop to keep it secure inside the belt.

You may want to mock one up out of some stiff cardboard to see if it will pivot like you want. 

[Gosut]

22 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

here is a period pattern for an iwb sheath clothing styles were much different the pants had no belt loops and if so the person wore a belt for the pants and a gun/ equipment belt higher up. this pattern has one belt loop to keep it secure inside the belt.

You may want to mock one up out of some stiff cardboard to see if it will pivot like you want. 

Second attempt at a reply. If there's a double post, that's why.

Thanks. Studying period carry is always fun. I was looking at some period carry for inspiration. I doubt any period sheath had a thumb break. I think the frog stud on waistband was used where and when cummerbunds were common.

I had thought of making a Civil War period sheath after finding a Pakistani blade made like or close to a Milledgeville (Georgia) pattern. That sheath would have been the simplest as it had no strap retention and a leather piece sewn onto the back for a belt to pass through. Apparently this piece would tear off, as there are some Civil War sheaths that look owner modified by cutting two slits in the leather for a belt to pass through. Granted that's a common and cheap way to make a belt mount, but the instances I saw looked like they might have been done in the field.  Unfortunately, the blade I was looking at seemed to be flared toward the point and what passed for a rat tang left something to be desired. If I did that one it, it would be for display only.