Pedersen 309 and Pedersen 300 sewing machines

[Mulesaw]

While browsing the classifieds here in Norway while we are in dry dock, I came across an ad where someone gave away 2 Pedersen sewing machines for free!
I quickly established a contact and in an incredibly stroke of luck apparently I was the first one to show an honest interest.

I got a friend to go along for the ride to help carry the machines, and about an hour later I find myself to be the lucky owner of a Pedersen 309 sole sewing machine, and a Pedersen type 300 sewing machine.
The 309 comes complete with bobbins and extra needles etc, and that one I have seen mentioned before in here. 

The type 300, I haven't been able to dig up any information about. As far as I have been able to find, it is still some sort of sole stitcher, but if anyone has got a more correct name or maybe even a manual for something similar, it will be greatly appreciated.

Both machines are in need of a thorough cleaning and oiling to run freely again. But none of them are mistreated.
The next big challenge is to get them sent from Norway to Denmark, but for the price that I didn't pay to get them, there should still be some money left that I can use for shipping.

 

[Wizcrafts]

The red machine is probably a curved needle out sole stitcher. You'd likely hold the shoe upsde down and sew around the sole from where it is skived in front of the heel. The gray machine is a McKay style insole stitcher. You place the shoe over the rotating horn with the bottom up and sew close to the inside of the shoe. A shoe repairman can explain it better.

[Mulesaw]

37 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

The red machine is probably a curved needle out sole stitcher. You'd likely hold the shoe upsde down and sew around the sole from where it is skived in front of the heel. The gray machine is a McKay style insole stitcher. You place the shoe over the rotating horn with the bottom up and sew close to the inside of the shoe. A shoe repairman can explain it better.

Thanks a lot Wiz, McKay style insole stitcher, that gives me somethig that I can try to Google. :-)
I had tried with 10 different things like boot stitcher etc, but nothing really came up.

I have found a manual for a 317 in here, that should be a bit more modern than the 309, but I guess still the basic same principle. 

Both machines need a bit of oiling, and I just sprayed them with some WD40 to get them to move a bit more freely. At least I can turn the 309 a full revolution now, but it still isn't moving super easy.
The 300 seems to have a bit fewer moving parts, and that one is moving a lot easier already.
I like that it is manually foot operated, so the only electric part on it is the heated cup for wax/tar, and I also like that both of them are so incredibly sturdy built. It is a pure joy to see and spin something that was clearly made to last.

Brgds Jonas

 

[TomE]

Looks like an adventure!  Keep us posted, Jonas. I am considering buying a large clicker press from a friend for less than a custom die will cost.  He closed his business making boot insoles for major brands like Thorogood and has retired.  It would take up space in my machine shed but I'm considering clicking out the yokes and decorative pieces for farrier aprons like the one I previously posted.  I haven't done any production work before and I'm debating whether to branch out or stick with made to order tack.  

[Mulesaw]

6 hours ago, TomE said:

Looks like an adventure!  Keep us posted, Jonas. I am considering buying a large clicker press from a friend for less than a custom die will cost.  He closed his business making boot insoles for major brands like Thorogood and has retired.  It would take up space in my machine shed but I'm considering clicking out the yokes and decorative pieces for farrier aprons like the one I previously posted.  I haven't done any production work before and I'm debating whether to branch out or stick with made to order tack.  

Hi Tom

If you have the space for the clicker press I would get it if I were you!
Offers like that only comes once in a 100 years. And I suppose that if he is retiring, then theoretically you could perhaps continue with his insole production for one or two of his old customers, that would also be branching out, albeit not in the horse world. 
Depending on how difficult it would be to make insoles, I am guessing that it was one of those tasks that could be handled by a high school kid with a bit of technical flair. But then you would have to employ a person, and that might be more trouble than it is worth.

Based on my collection of various woodworking machinery, I can honestly say that I have very rarely regretted getting something old of industrial quality. the quality of older machines is normally first class. 
And I think that even on a large clicker press - you are able to make small items. 

I have been toying with the idea of making key fobs out of old saddles, I just need to make a die for it. I guess that my drill press will be sufficient to work as a press in those cases, but I would have to experiment with it. 

The good news on these sewing machines is that since liberally spraying everything with WD40 last night, they move a lot better today than yesterday. 
Still I think that they need a more thorough cleaning and a good oiling with sewing machine oil or similar, to run as smooth as I like.

Brgds Jonas

[Constabulary]

I would check for SUTTON or McKay stitchers, IIRC Pederson models are sometimes very similar if not identical. Just what I have observed from the shoe making guys. Maybe even BUSM / British United Shoe Machinery, MOENUS, ALBEKO or PROTOS.

Edited June 4 by Constabulary

[Tastech]

Good score ,i am envious . The 309 is a blake or mckay stitcher . Pretty reliable. The second is an out-sole stitcher . a predecessor of the rapid K. The rapid K was made by Pederson and branded as a Sutton in the US. I hope they don't need parts because they don't exist any more and the only source is to find an old machine . 

If you can show me a detailed photo of the outsole stitcher needles ,i think i have some .

[Mulesaw]

2 hours ago, Constabulary said:

I would check for SUTTON or McKay stitchers, IIRC Pederson models are sometimes very similar if not identical. Just what I have observed from the shoe making guys. Maybe even BUSM / British United Shoe Machinery, MOENUS, ALBEKO or PROTOS.

Thanks Constabulary,

I think it was actually you who supplied a manual for a 317 that I have been looking at in an old post :-)

I'll try to check out all of those and see if any manuals will be available.
It seems as some of the Landis machines are similar to the Pedersen machines as well. From what I have been able to see on Youtube so far, the outsole stitchers are more common than the McKay style insole stitcher. But I have just searched for it one evening, so I hope that I will find some more information on how to set up and use etc.

Anyway both machines needs a heavy cleaning and oiling. And I need to get them transported from Norway to Denmark somehow. But at least they are safe now from someone wanting them to make a steampunk lamp or something along those lines. 

Brgds Jonas
 

[Mulesaw]

1 hour ago, Tastech said:

Good score ,i am envious . The 309 is a blake or mckay stitcher . Pretty reliable. The second is an out-sole stitcher . a predecessor of the rapid K. The rapid K was made by Pederson and branded as a Sutton in the US. I hope they don't need parts because they don't exist any more and the only source is to find an old machine . 

If you can show me a detailed photo of the outsole stitcher needles ,i think i have some .

Thanks Tastech,

I'll try to get some pictures of the needles and the awl, but today is pretty busy, so it might not be until tomorrow that I get it done.
Blake stitcher, I'll try to google that too. After googling McKay stitcher last night, I found a lot more compared to when I searched for a Pedersen type 300. 
I really like that it is foot operated and with a heavy flywheel. The simplicity appeals a lot to me, and also the rugged yet elegant lines of the castings of those old machines. 
The foot pedal is cast with a nice "knurled" surface to prevent slipping, and the pedestal has got some nice lines to it as well. 

The only part that I can see is missing so far from the outsole stitcher, is the end of the grease cup used for the intermediate belt wheel. But I can make a new one of those on the lathe at home if needs be.  I guess that it could be a regular 1/4" pipe thread, so I might go that route first and see if I can adapt some pipe thread bushing.
The McKay stitcher only has got the one needle that is currently in it, so I have to look into what needle system that is and then find out if they are still available.

Brgds Jonas

[Tastech]

1 hour ago, Mulesaw said:

Anyway both machines needs a heavy cleaning and oiling. And I need to get them transported from Norway to Denmark somehow. But at least they are safe now from someone wanting them to make a steampunk lamp or something along those line

Lol , Those pesky steam punk lamp makers , They have destroyed many a machine . I hope there is a special place in hell for them .

@Mulesaw When your get a chance also post some photos of the bobbin and bobbin casing . I have some parts that might be for your sole stitcher . I got a random box of parts that are from an outsole stitcher but not sure what machine . Definitely not a landis  or a british Victor so might be for a pederson 

[Mulesaw]

3 hours ago, Tastech said:

Lol , Those pesky steam punk lamp makers , They have destroyed many a machine . I hope there is a special place in hell for them .

@Mulesaw When your get a chance also post some photos of the bobbin and bobbin casing . I have some parts that might be for your sole stitcher . I got a random box of parts that are from an outsole stitcher but not sure what machine . Definitely not a landis  or a british Victor so might be for a pederson 

 I am glad that I am not alone in that assumption about steampunk lamp producers.
I'll take some more pictures of it. 

I was daydreaming about using it today, and thought about the possibility to use it for sewing alongside the edges of a belt. Not sure if it is a great idea, but I think that I want to try that sometime. And it should be able to sew some beefy leather with a hefty thread, so it might look sturdy. Also I reckon that there is some sort of fence that will help in keeping a fixed distance from the edge.

Brgds Jonas

[Mulesaw]

@Tastech

I made a check on the inventory of the machine, and apart from sitting unused and unlubricated, it is really positive. Oh yes, I also found the missing grease cup cover, so that is mounted in the correct place again.
there is minimal rust, and there are some tools that look like they are the original tools that must have come with the machine. Open end wrenches/spanners, a small screwdriver with a knurled metal handle, a wire "getthethreadthroughthesmallholes" thing plus a few other period correct tools, that look like old multi bicycle spanners. 

Plus:

6 bobbins
1 bobbin holder
a couple of feed dogs, some of them might be for the insole stitcher, but all was in the small drawer of the outsole stitcher.
2 weird looking hook things, my guess without having researched much is that they are for the thread catcher on the outsole stitcher.
A bunch of old needles marked "old needles"
Some new needles for both machines.
Something that might be an adjustment tool, (has got some red paint on it)
A couple of metal parts that look like they are for the machine, but so far I don't know for what, a semicircular disc and a smaller disc.
half a handful of various sized screws.
Some homemade leather discs and a small rubber cushion.
A black plastic organizer tray that looks like it is the original from the machine.

My thought is that during the transport to Denmark at some point, if the drawer opened due to vibration or curiosity etc. it would be all too easy for some small parts to go missing. So I have emptied the drawer and I will bring all the small parts with me home in my suitcase. I'll also take the bobbin winder since that one is sitting fairly unprotected, so it is a bit at risk of being caught on something and the it would break.

 

[Tastech]

@Mulesaw. I checked my box of parts and took a photo of some easily identified parts . The parts seem to all start with the letters VSM then a number . I have no idea what VSM represents . I was hoping someone might know . I have taken some vernier  caliper measurements  in millimeters of the bobbin and listed the part numbers . The parts shown are definitely from an out sole stitcher  but i have no idea what make. 

 By looking at your photos and mine things look a little different .

[Mulesaw]

9 minutes ago, Tastech said:

@Mulesaw. I checked my box of parts and took a photo of some easily identified parts . The parts seem to all start with the letters VSM then a number . I have no idea what VSM represents . I was hoping someone might know . I have taken some vernier  caliper measurements  in millimeters of the bobbin and listed the part numbers . The parts shown are definitely from an out sole stitcher  but i have no idea what make. 

 By looking at your photos and mine things look a little different .

They do look a bit different, especially the bobbin holder, mine is not nearly as "elegant" and the #91 part doesn't look like something like those "thread catchers" on the Pedersen.
I guess they could be for a more modern version of the outsole stitcher, but I am so very new to the outsole stitcher owners world - that I haven't got any good suggestions except just some name dropping. But super cool and nice of you to take the time to look at it. It is deeply appreciated.

I would guess that the most likely machine is one that was common in Australia, but at least in Europe, most independent shoemakers closed shop probably 50 years ago, so finding someone who still remembers might be difficult.

I think that pretty much the only ones that still makes shoes from scratch in Denmark are orthopedic shoemakers, so if you have any of those nearby you could perhaps go check their outsole stitcher to see if the parts would be identical to that machine. But I know from myself that there are so many things to do that I have to be careful to not embark on a time consuming adventure unless there is some reasonable outcome in it. Still I hate the idea of having nice spare parts lying around knowing that they could be put to good use for the correct person.

20 years ago I got an old Ducati workshop manual in a box of other stuff (I think it was for the 860 GTS) I really didn't have any use for it, so I advertised it off for free and some Ducati owner was over the moon to get his hands on it. But that was an easy thing to identify, your parts are quite a bit harder :-)

Brgds Jonas

[Tastech]

@ mulesaw Can you recommend any steampunk lamp makers that might be interested? LOL

[Mulesaw]

2 hours ago, Tastech said:

@ mulesaw Can you recommend any steampunk lamp makers that might be interested? LOL

HAHAHAHAHA 

Nope, I don't know any of those, 
It is a shame that we can't figure out what machines they are intended for, they look very well kept, with no scratches and no rust issues etc. 
 

Perhaps we should suggest the moderators to make a sub forum under sewing machines for "parts identification". There has got to be more people who once in a while have a part that they don't know where belong or what it'll do.

On my picture with all the spanners, the 3 items on the left are a mystery to me. The long part looks like some "check the adjustment" part, but it could be something else. Then there is a knurled part that slides over the long part that I also haven't got a clue what will do, and finally something that looks like a tension disc - only it isn't. I am guessing that if I had a manual for a 309 outsole stitcher, it would help, but I guess it isn't uncommon that parts and machines become separated after so many years, and then we are kind of lost.

Another thing, do you make your lasts yourself, or do you buy some and then tweak them into fitting perfect? I'm asking because I haven't been able to find any lasts nearby, and I have often considered making them myself. I have looked at some Youtube videos, and I think that whatever I make it should still be OK. As long as the basic measurements like instep and length are going to be OK.
Some of the methods seem very labor intensive and maybe a bit experimental, like making a model of your foot using duct tape and then casting plaster in it. But it could probably work too.

Brgds Jonas

[Tastech]

@Mulesaw. I found out what may parts are for . A victor outsole stitcher . The guys at shoe repair forum helped me out . Perhaps you should join the forum and ask for info . They have a few industry specialists on there . They have some uncanny info on there . They are a grumpy old bunch but helpful none the less 

https://shoerepairer.info/

[Mulesaw]

@Tastech

Good idea, thanks for the tip.

Actually I saw your post there yesterday evening while I was browsing the net for a manual for the 309. 
I tried so many different search phrases, and at some point I guess it was "Pedersen outsole stitcher", one of the pictures that came up looked strangely familiar, so I clicked on it and was convinced that I had seen it before, so I followed the link, and it took me to the site you mentioned, and I could see it was your picture of the spare parts :-)

I am completely self taught in the shoe repairing business, and so far it has mostly been riding boots that has needed a bit of mending and a new zipper. But despite not advertising at all I get more and more inquiries about shoe repair. 
 

Brgds Jonas