Tell me what stitching chisel for newbie shoemaker

[Aventurine]

Topic:  stitching chisel

Context: Total newbie to shoemaking (I make buckskin moccasins and want to move on to more structured shoes in firm leather). I have lists of the *kinds* of tools I should get, but the lists are general because the exact sizes/specs depend on the kind of shoe you want to make and the weight of leather you want to use.  I need more specific advice in order to get the minimal set of serviceable tools.

Intended use:  To start, I want to make simple medieval-ish high shoes and ankle boots from work-shoe leather, roughly 2mm (5 oz), vegetable tanned, lined in leather as well.  I want the work to be strong without looking too coarse, so I'm guessing .55 or .6mm waxed linen thread at around 7 or 8 stitches per inch for the tops?  And to stitch the soles... I don't know.  Suggestions?

Problem:  For the sake of neat regularity I'd like to use a diamond point stitching chisel.  The ways these tools are described  and marketed is completely baffling me. I can't choose.
 
Request:  What's the appropriate tooth size and tooth distance for what I want to do??  And what is the best value-for-money brand for a tool that fits that description? 

Whatever you recommend, please, I need it to be good out of the box. (I don't have either the willingness or the power grinders and stuff to refine a sloppily tooled tool. I have Arkansas stones and Crocus cloth.) 

Edited July 11 by Aventurine
clarity

[Mablung]

@Aven is a wealth of knowledge on making things like this. Are you looking to make lasted shoes or unlasted moccasins and stitchdown shoes? I’ve made a thread talking about the stitchdown chukkas I’ve made. I did those with 5mm irons, but that’s really close stitching; for the soles, my next pair will probably have half as many stitches, per Aven’s suggestion. The stitching gets really tedious. Fielder’s choice on how to stitch the uppers. I’ll probably stick with my 5mm chisels or pricking irons.

As far as thread goes, I use 0.8mm Ritza or 1mm Maine Thread Co. stuff. I like both. If you want a finer thread, make sure your chisels have a fine enough tooth to make a smaller hole.

I’ll offer that veg-tan probably isn’t a good choice for the uppers. Too stiff, not as impervious to water and other elements, tough break-in. I’ve been using SB Foot chrome tan, and it’s wonderful. A pair of moccasin loafers will be chrome tan/veg-retanned bison, which will handle moisture, etc., better than plain veg tan. Just a thought. On the note of veg tan, my basic Tandy chisels make a fairly wide hole in veg tan, which allows thread to shift more, if the parts aren’t cemented together. I don’t cement the uppers or sole/lower stitching on shoes. If you stick with veg tan, you will need to be especially cognizant of the size of hole made and the extent to which it will or won’t close up. My chrome tan closes up just fine, veg tan not so much. 

[Northmount]

1 hour ago, Aventurine said:

Topic:  stitching chisel

Since this is more about sewing leather, moved your post there.  Take a look through this pinned topic.  https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/88881-stitching-chiselsirons-and-pricking-irons-reviews-and-information/

 

[Aventurine]

@Mablung, thank you for answering!

I do want to use undyed veg tan  and linen thread for environmental/health/traditional aesthetic reasons, to tool it, and dye it myself with natural dyes.  With enough oils and waxing I feel okay about wet and weather. 

As to weight/stiffness, my current work boots are probably 4 to 5 oz;  I think closer to 5, but your comment makes me realize I better get advice pertaining to tools for working with 4oz too because maybe I'll have to move down to that.  

Eventually lasted shoes, yes...but it will be a long expensive project getting lasts for my size 8 4E spatulate feet with narrrow straight heel and short toes.  I'll save that for another post.  . For the immediate future, I  am hoping I can make things with  more support than moccasins, including insole, heavy leather midsole, glued-on rubber outsole,  and a maybe a short heel, without the last.  Not sure yet.  For now while learning the basic skills,  the tools I need to buy most carefully are the sewing chisels because good ones are so expensive.

Edited July 11 by Aventurine

[Mablung]

The tool use really isn’t going to differ between 4 ounce and 5 ounce. The big thing will just be making sure that the size of your chisel tine matches the size of hole that you want to make for the size of thread that you choose. And fair enough on wanting to color the leather yourself and use something a little more natural. Can’t really argue with that. if I were you, I would go and look at some of the other threads in the shoe making forum about how to condition shoes made with vegetable tanned leather. There are some good leather conditioner recipes in there, and some people talking about their experience conditioning and waxing boots in particular that are made of veg tan. Some good resources that will likely be helpful as you are trying to use that leather to make shoes. Something that another member posted a while back was a short version of his process of warm, stuffing tan sandal, mid soles with a conditioner blend in order to achieve some degree of resistance to the elements. I have not tried it personally, but he seemed to get decent results out of it.

Forgot to add, be sure to post photos of your work as you go, especially the end product. I, for one, will be interested to see it, especially since I have not worked with veg tan for shoes specifically.

[Aventurine]

Thank you.  I will probably be too embarrassed to post pictures but we'll see.    

Can you advise me on what sewing chisel to use for .6mm thread;  5, 6, and 7 stitches per inch?

[Mablung]

6 minutes ago, Aventurine said:

Thank you.  I will probably be too embarrassed to post pictures but we'll see.    

Can you advise me on what sewing chisel to use for .6mm thread;  5, 6, and 7 stitches per inch?

Nah, post away. If I posted pictures of the first pair I made after a bit of wear, they would look hideous. I’m still refining the pattern, as a matter of fact. I got some good help by posting the ugly pictures, too.

I must admit at this juncture that I’m not widely experienced with a variety of chisels. Personally, if I want small/narrow holes, I like the Tandy Pro fine chisels. If I’m not concerned about narrow holes, I use the regular Tandy ones with the fatter tines. If I want it to be particularly tight, I use my Tandy Pro M Pricking Irons and narrow awl blade. There’s a sticky in the Sewing forum with Nigel Armitage’s reviews of an impressive array of irons and chisels that will provide you far more information than I can. For your uses, stitch length can follow tine/tooth size, as hole size will be the most important factor within the range of SPI you’re talking about. 

[Aven]

Thanks Mablung.  That was kind of you.

Aventurine, the first shoes I ever made were turn shoes at a workshop with Jason Horvatter in Portland OR.  It was an awesome class. I don't think he does group classes any longer, but he does have a book and a DVD on making turn shoes.  If you enjoy reading and experimenting on your own, a copy of Stepping Through Time will serve you well.  If you want a bit more guidance, you can't go wrong with Jason's DVD and/or book.  Now let me say first, I have the upmost respect for Jason.  I believe his classes are worth every penny he asks for them.  I would take another one is a heart beat if I could swing it, but do not buy your tools from him.  The mark up is just too much for what you getting. 

We did not use stitching chisels to put the uppers together or attach them to the soles.  We used straight and curved (inseaming) awls. A lacing chisel was used to punch holes along the raw edges so they can be reinforced with lace.  The leather was about 8oz for the uppers and the sole was 12/14 oz latigo for the soles. Jason lays out how to make a pattern to fit your foot with duct tape and registration marks.  It makes putting the shoes together relatively easy.

The basic tools you will need doing it Jason's way:

A cutting mat.

Means of cutting the heavy leather - leather scissors or a utility knife or both.  Learn how to hone your knife blade.  Your sanity might just depend on developing this skill.

Flat surface for skiving, a granite slab, a 12" x 12" piece of temper glass.

A skiving knife or safety skiver.  Get a bunch of extra blades for the safety skiver. Using the skiver for just one more pass when the blade is dulled is a recipe for a disaster.  Your leather or your skin will be the cost.  Oh, yeah, get a box of band aides/plasters for the shop.  Bleeding on a project will just add insult to injury.  Lisa Sorrel has a great video on Youtube on using a skiving knife.  Definitely worth the time to watch. 

A silver gel pen.  99% of the time it will wipe off the leather.

A jerk needle.  This is a McKay needle in a handle that has a brass nut that tightens down.  You can find one on etsy.  Search for jerk needle.

Straight and curved (inseaming) awls and a stabbing awl.

If you are going to use linen thread, you really ought to do some research into preparing and using linen thread.  You'll need to track down some hand wax (coad) for the thread. I'd recommend black Nyltex thread for attaching the uppers to the sole.

2 harness needles and a lacing needle.

If you are using Jason's pattern making process you will need poster board, duct tape, permanent markers and shaped punches.

That's my short list for making turn shoes.  There are other tools that might make some processes easier, but they aren't necessary.  These shoes were made by hand with minimal tools for a long time.

 

Jason wrote up how he does turn shoes for Leather Crafters Jul/Aug 2017. Its on seven pages.  The book  is 59 pages.  The DVD is 274 minutes long.

 

Edited July 12 by Aven
Spelling matters

[Mablung]

Happy to, Aven. And that summary above is a great “quick start guide” on the subject. 
 

Personally, I do my cutting and most skiving with my round knife, but I have a particular affinity for this rather large CS Osborne I got on eBay for a steal and resharpened. (Sharpening and honing is a critically important skill, to echo Aven’s remark.) Aven’s comments on using awls also introduces the fact one can use an awl to make holes instead of a set of chisels. I’m making myself and my nephew some moccasins and plan to mark my holes with a set of wing dividers, then punch with an awl, because I don’t want to use a round drive punch or try to find a set of irons with the right spacing. 

[Aven]

Aventurine, check out podohub.com for lasts. I'm pretty sure that you can find what you are looking for in a last there.

[SUP]

@Aventurine, most important... get an anti-tetanus shot!

[Mablung]

3 minutes ago, SUP said:

@Aventurine, most important... get an anti-tetanus shot!

Then there’s that? I nearly took the tip of one finger off, or would have if my first head knife weren’t so dull. 

[Aventurine]

 I think I’ll just plan on dyeing the leather blood-red
@Aven, those turn shoes sound like exactly what I’d want to start with!  Please, what kind  of skiving knife?  End-sharpened like a chisel  or triangular side sharpened like an x-acto blade (“English knife”)? And what size?   Would it differ according to the thickness or hardness of the leathers?

For the heavy leathers you describe, how heavy a thread, how long a stitch, and how big an awl blade?  I understand that the lore on this is that you should make the holes small and tight so that they will grip the thread and not allow it to “saw”into the leather with use.  I don’t know how to apply that advice  though.

Edited July 12 by Aventurine

[Aventurine]

@Sup thank you for the reminder.  No fears, I am vaccinated and always have Povidine  and such stuff in the house.

[Aven]

10 hours ago, Aventurine said:

 I think I’ll just plan on dyeing the leather blood-red
@Aven, those turn shoes sound like exactly what I’d want to start with!  Please, what kind  of skiving knife?  End-sharpened like a chisel  or triangular side sharpened like an x-acto blade (“English knife”)? And what size? 

Skiving knife -  Sorry, I'm not going to be helpful here.  I have several skiving knives and a couple of safety skivers.  I'm a neurodivergent lefty made to be a righty with hand damage.  My thought process is my own and my physical dexterity is different from yours. So.. what works for me might not work for you.  I like the safety skivers (the stick shaped ones with a triangle formed end) because they use a razor blade so they are sharp.  I dislike them because the blade cost adds up over time. And its easy to cut yourself getting a blade in or out.  They dull quickly, but when they are sharp they work a treat.  I found they work best if they are held at an angle, not perpendicular to the edge of the leather, closer to 45° so you are doing more of a slicing motion. 

I have two Japanese style knives I got at Sorrel Notions, a 3/4" and a 1". They are about 10" long and about 5mm thick. I tend to use both equally.  Learning how to sharpen them takes more than a minute.  You will need a couple of high grit water stones or wet and dry paper and a strop. One of the things that I saw in a basics class that I thought was really brilliant was to sharpen your knife and then cut thick scrap leather with it until it wasn't sharp any longer then hone the knife and start cutting again.  This taught you what really sharp feels like when you cut and you got to figure out a technique for honing that works for you.  And it gives you practice cutting leather free hand if you marked cutting lines before hand.

There are numerous styles, custom and factory made.  Pick one and learn how to use it. Draw a margin line and learn to skive to it and not taking chunks out of the edge. Practice on scrap until you feel confident using it.

 

10 hours ago, Aventurine said:

Would it differ according to the thickness or hardness of the leathers?

No. The only thing that changes is the angle of the blade.  You lift the handle higher for a thick leather than you would for a thin leather.

10 hours ago, Aventurine said:

For the heavy leathers you describe, how heavy a thread, how long a stitch, and how big an awl blade?  I understand that the lore on this is that you should make the holes small and tight so that they will grip the thread and not allow it to “saw”into the leather with use.  I don’t know how to apply that advice  though.

Use something thickish for your thread.  0.8, 1, 1.2mm.  You need something that will hold up to the stress of you walking in the shoes.

If you are going to use linen you will most likely have to make it up from smaller diameter strings.  You will have to twist them together and taper the ends.  And wax it.  Its a whole nother process to master.  While I respect those that use linen threads for shoe making and take them to their A&S for review, its more than I want to do.  There a couple of videos out there on loading a boar bristle.  Search the forum for boar bristle.  I know I linked a couple for someone interested in going that route.

Stitch length - 1 cm works.  Its not too close to cause your leather to tear.  Its not too far apart to leave space that your finger will fit in. 

Practice doing a butt seam and using an awl.  The upper is stitched to the sole by using the inseaming awl to go from the top of the sole (the side your foot will be on) to the middle of the edge of the leather.  This way you aren't walking on any stitches.

[Mablung]

Look in the Leather Tools forum for guidance on things like different flavors of skiving tools. I use the safety skiver that Aven described and my round knife for skiving. Lots of ways to skin that cat. Go read the other threads, get your wits jumbled and then reassembled, and see if you can “test drive” someone else’s tools somewhere. 

[Aven]

23 hours ago, Northmount said:

Since this is more about sewing leather, moved your post there.  Take a look through this pinned topic.  https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/88881-stitching-chiselsirons-and-pricking-irons-reviews-and-information/

 

Northmount, would you mind sticking this back into shoe making? 

Thanks

[Aven]

Here's a short video of Jason's turnshoe process.  It takes you through all the steps so you get an idea of what making a turn shoe looks like

[Northmount]

1 hour ago, Aven said:

Northmount, would you mind sticking this back into shoe making? 

Thanks

Moved, was originally in How do I do That

[Aventurine]

Thank you all so much!