Binding with a right angle binder on a walking foot machine

[Dave9111]

I am using a Pfaff 1245 walking foot and I purchased a right angle binder setup probably 10 years ago and I have never been able to master this thing.

I bought 100 yards of polyester single fold binding from Rochford supply years ago and it works ok on straight runs or large curves.   

The Rochford binding is rather stiff so I have to fight it when doing tighter turns, about 6 inch radius and less.   So I thought I would try and buy some double fold polyester binding off Amazon, it was cheap.  Its a thin material but it doesn't work well in the binder.   Somehow it rolls sometimes after making the turn in the binder.  My guess is that it is not stiff enough.

So what next? 

Rochford, Wawak, and Amazon all have a lot of binding, but I have no idea what will work well in this binder.

Do I just keep guessing and buy a few different kinds?   Wawak offers heavy, medium and light single fold binding.    Is there any standard for what is Heavy, medium and light?

Would woven, unfolded, twill binding possibly work?  

I never thought that binding would be this challenging!   Are there any how-to's written on how do run a binder?  

Are straight binders more forgiving than right angle binders?

Thanks,  Dave

[Wizcrafts]

@Dave9111;

Many years aago I had a sew ing gig that required me to sew binding onto the edges of road workers' safety vgave ding run off the top or bottom on turns, especially inside turns. The vests had outside and inside curves. I  tried inexpensive oriental binders, but they let the bindinsg run off the top or bottom on inside curves. My dealer recommended getting a custom binder made by a specialist. It cost the boss $400 for that binder, but it worked flawlessly. If you aren't getting satisfactory results with a stock binder, look into a custom made binder that's made to work with a particular binding material.

The right angle binder I had made double-folded binding out of flat 1.25 inch polyester edge tape.

[kgg]

10 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

Are straight binders more forgiving than right angle binders?

I use inline/straight binders single fold and double fold from 1/4" to 3 1/2" on all my machines whether they are flatbed or cylinder arm. The main advantage of a 90 degree binder is that it should be able to do tighter corners then a inline/ straight. The disadvantages of the 90 degree binders are i) they cost a lot more then your inline/ straight. ii) you can't on most adjust the tension on the tape at binder itself. The main problem I think you are having is poor back tension on your tape and the path the binding tape travels through the binder is to wide so you are getting tape slop. 

Are you using your binding tape with a vertical or horizontal platter or just letting it drape to the floor??

Any photo's of your binding setup???

[Dave9111]

Thanks for the replies!  :-) 

I'll get you guys some pictures today.

I have several of those safety vests so I know exactly what you are talking about.  Some of those binding curves are rather tight.

This binder setup was made specifically made for the Pfaff 1245.   It has a boss brazed to a new bobbin cover plate and the right angle binder is screwed to the boss.

I think it cost $80 or $90, 10 years ago, so maybe $150 or more in todays money?   

It very well may be a China cheapie on a custom cover plate.  

I'm thinking that the binding material I have been using is simply wrong.   I ordered some medium weight bias tape from Wawak and it was supposed to be here today, but the freezing rain and ice is delaying the shipment delivery until tomorrow.

My tape feed to the binder consists of am inverted plastic drink cup with a hole in the bottom ( custom! ) , and a 1/2" dowel sticking upright in my tool holder block on the machine table.   The cup spaces the reel off  the tool holder.  That actually works pretty well!   The tape falls maybe a foot from the right side of the table to the binder.  

 

 

[nylonRigging]

10 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

Thanks for the replies!  :-) 

I'll get you guys some pictures today.

I have several of those safety vests so I know exactly what you are talking about.  Some of those binding curves are rather tight.

This binder setup was made specifically made for the Pfaff 1245.   It has a boss brazed to a new bobbin cover plate and the right angle binder is screwed to the boss.

I think it cost $80 or $90, 10 years ago, so maybe $150 or more in todays money?   

It very well may be a China cheapie on a custom cover plate.  

I'm thinking that the binding material I have been using is simply wrong.   I ordered some medium weight bias tape from Wawak and it was supposed to be here today, but the freezing rain and ice is delaying the shipment delivery until tomorrow.

My tape feed to the binder consists of am inverted plastic drink cup with a hole in the bottom ( custom! ) , and a 1/2" dowel sticking upright in my tool holder block on the machine table.   The cup spaces the reel off  the tool holder.  That actually works pretty well!   The tape falls maybe a foot from the right side of the table to the binder.  

 

 

 

Your binding tape choices make a HUGE difference when you don't match to your specific needs . Also a lot of the cheep import binding is out of spec. crap. Try only to buy US milled quality and it really aids to better tracking, lays down better, makes your work look 100% professional. Buy your product from a good vendor selling US quality mil-spec. or just order direct, like from Bally Ribbon mill.

Cheep Binders, they can lay down Real Nice tape job with using quality tape, and If the binder is setup proper on that machine.
but, then just opposite. Expensive-$ Binder if setup Bad to machine, just gives you one continuous Headache after another. with your work looking like crap.
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[Dave9111]

I received my Wawak 1" binding so I decided to try it.  The pictures mostly show the Wawak Bias Tape Binding.

The picture with the cylindrical roll of Rochford tape is what works in this binder.   The picture with the coarse tape in the binder is the Rochford tape.  The Rochford tape is straight cut and when sewn doesn't want to turn corners.   I was hoping the Wawak bias tape (the flat roll) would turn corners, but I can't get it to lay down properly properly prior to stitching.   

So the Wawak Bias Tape binding was an utter failure.  It won't work in this binder.  It slides and then rolls one edge before it gets to the right angle turn.  I tried several things and the binding will not track straight in this binder.   I think this binder is simply not compatible with thin bias tape.  It works well with the Rochford tape, but the Rochford tape is probably made out of 6 oz canvas.  The Wawak bias tape is probably 1-2 oz fabric.   Huge difference.   I think I am trying to run light clothing tape in a binder made for canvas tape.  

I thought Rochford might sell bias cut tape similar to what works, but they do not.  Its all straight cut.

NylonRigging... if I buy some mil spec binding, which I think is similar to molle tape/webbing(?), will that turn corners?  Do you think it will go through a right angle binder?

Or perhaps I should get a different binder and put it on lighter weight straight stitch machine?   Most of what I want to do is bind 2 layers of 8 oz canvas.   But I need to be able to make inside and outside turns.   Similar to a safety vest binding which was mentioned.  I have a common, straight stitch industrial machine, non walking foot, which could be setup with a different binder.  It isn't getting much use anyway.

In many cases I really don't need heavy binding.  Its fairly expensive.  The cheaper Rochford 1" tapes are about $75 for 100 yard.  The more expensive tapes are about $150/100 yards.   The Wawak tape was $14.00 for 55 yards and it is heavy enough for a lot of what I want to do.

I was hoping I could run the light, cheap binding in this binder, and be able to turn corners, but apparently the binder was designed for 6-10 oz fabric binding.

Buying a $400 binder setup doesn't make sense since I don't do that much binding and for the most part I am not getting paid for my work.  I've sold some covers on Ebay, but the sales are not significant.   This is primarily for my own use.   I have a couple of boats and a bunch of equipment and I seem to constantly be making covers or bags for this and that.    I made a large cover for a trailer recently that was 15ft x 46 ft in size.    I need to make a sailboat cover and there are places on the cover that I would like to be able to bind and there are many tight turns.

You might notice in the picts that I am not using a stubby binding foot for the front foot, I have one, but it was interfering with the binder bracket.  So I changed it to a small regular foot to try and figure out what was going on.

What do you guys think?  

Thanks! 

[Wizcrafts]

@Dave9111

Have you tried contacting Sailrite using their online chat? They deal with people sewing canvas and nylon. All of their machines have special binder attachments available that work with the bias tape they sell. This ain't yo Momma's bias tape either. Some of it is made out of canvas. They sell Sunbrella and matching bias tape. Chances are that their folders and tapes will get your jobs done correctly.

Here is one of the Sailrite videos demonstrating how to sew both inside and outside 90 degree turns using Sunbrella bias tape and fabric.

[Dave9111]

Ill look.  I buy from Sailrite occasionally.  

They are about 45 minutes from me.

Good idea.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Dave9111 said:

Ill look.  I buy from Sailrite occasionally.  

They are about 45 minutes from me.

Good idea.

Bring some of your material with you. Have them try to bind it with their tape and binder. Then, let us know how it plays out.

[Dave9111]

I was looking at Sailrites binder.  It says its suitable for gentle outside curves.   They only have a straight binder for sale.  No right angles which I have been told is required for tight inside and outside curves.  But they do have heavier bias tape, which Rochford does not.  Rochford only has straight cut tape, which seems strange.  Perhaps I need to simply buy some of Sailrites bias tape and try that with the binder I have.  

Im going to drive right by Sailrite tomorrow.  I think Ill place a pickup order and try and get it tomorrow.  But I wont be able to try it for several days since Im driving to my daughter's house in Chicago.

 

[kgg]

10 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

What do you guys think?  

i) The binder you are using is not positioned properly from front to back and twisted. To me it seems as though it was made to be used with a particular type of binding tape with a specific presser foot setup.

ii) The binder has no front to back adjustment.

iii) The make shift arrangement of how you are mounting the coil of bias tape is never going to give you consistent and acceptable results.

Suggestions:

i) Purchase a proper bias tape platter. I prefer a platter that holds the bias tape horizontally over one that hold the bias tape a vertically.

ii) Since you are close to the Sailrite store purchase a Sailrite inline binder for 1" binding tape if that is the size you want  ( https://www.sailrite.com/Binder-1-Swing-Bracket ) with a swing away attachment. I have a couple of the Sailrite binders that came with a Sailrite machine that I picked up awhile ago and they are decent quality but expensive at $72 USD.

As a price comparison you can get a pretty good CKPSMS branded one off Amazon.com for $20 with a swing away attachment ( https://www.amazon.com/CKPSMS-Adjustable-Single-A4B-Machines/dp/B0BH8MG3SR?crid=1AQ7CPZYU45IC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Vk4OlxqvhPRNsqsK4L5btm_oB3ToI8b9AUN-BxlpKNlq-4hV3Nd9ALOdzkLEDyln43jzKhLQ8ptVTstf5lcUSkSDGJkKjWxkZ1dTnVWiZnJr_CL_STfYpLxqowFJTLTtsoLsEU7Z4dj1HHfBFB7_BkINB_wnW9KhwsLChDL4ztsiJ0gJ0DOSanI4teK5lKTby1K1j4p7pqcWcje5uMH6tezCKaPNUYSRAzGcXvdyJmqci88YI0BzhJg5ZccBWEO1CHeBx4skmcN8RqYHbrM8aROf51xjDe5iO33-i_OiwSR2ljvhBvF7aou_4pcrLA2bpxNM0QqPbIRuaogpBAq7uz2mZ32xKTXbk2wGBuUpnf7phIKBiXYs_XPiYeMrZWOXYUREyAaMCYoa7pFkZ3yDaZyAz4lXRIQi2esyfFAH9YBydEv1HVwDXc5pOuqpe1Xd.1ZGLcvgIyXGofpY6xddiETTz6CkoSkul-8DmIUohh9U&dib_tag=se&keywords=CKPSMS+Brand+-+1SET+Swing+Away+single+Fold+Binder+Attachment&qid=1739146362&sprefix=ckpsms+brand+-+1set+swing+away+single+fold+binder+attachment+%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-4 )

If I am not mistaken Sailrite binders only come in single fold so you would have to purchase binding tape already folded over or use raw edge binding tape in the size for the binder you buy.

52 minutes ago, Dave9111 said:

No right angles which I have been told is required for tight inside and outside curves.

How tight are you planning on doing? With a inline binder I can usually get about a 2 1/2" diameter turn and if I am careful about 2" diameter. all lot depends on the thickness of the binding tape and material.

kgg

[nylonRigging]

12 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

NylonRigging... if I buy some mil spec binding, which I think is similar to molle tape/webbing(?), will that turn corners?  Do you think it will go through a right angle binder?

 

Sorry, couldn't reply sooner I been in the shop all day cutting a sewing . OK first off, I don't understand this, In the Pic. ? , I might not be seeing it correctly ? with your Tape feeding/going into Binder.  You got a Raw-Edge Binder, and it looks like you got Tape folding, as it is feeding into the binders throat.
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Edited yesterday at 06:27 AM by nylonRigging

[nylonRigging]

Also add..

Turning radius is not to hard if you get the setup correctly mounted into the Feet on your machine . That is a BIG hurtle to teach yourself. Reality is that the only way to really learn how, is to just start mounting Binders to your machines Feed, and build some understanding with how positions/angle/height effects the feeding of the binding out the throat and lays.
Different binding materials do turn different. Also you might be trying to turn to Wide of Width Binding, in relationship to your thickness of material ? .  it does takes some practice also so you need to take it all in stride, dude I been running finish edge seam binding over 30+ years, with almost everything I sew having binding on it, and I still screw-up once in while.
( Me ).. I have set-up a CrapLoad of binders on machines, and fed many miles of binding. I seam bind almost everyday I sewing .. But.. my skill.. I only know what I do for last 30+ years. I use double-needle and single-needle, I only use raw edge binders and binding, I primarily use 'Love' needle-feeds for taping/binding . I do have and use compound feeds, but synchronized-swing set-ups . I mostly 'like using'  type-lll grosgrain's, and I use Herringbone Bias binding.
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OK.. I just grabbed cut some scrap to show you different material in reference to thickness of material you bind . 'Radius' Binding. using ( 2 ) R-Angle Binders.

Here a 5" circle consisting of 2-piece of 1-k denier cordura. seam bound with 3/4" wide typelll with a 3/32 gauge double needle,  T-70 thread . 5" radius is about as tight as I like to go with a double-needle . Single-needle with some 1/2" wide bias will easy turn even smaller/tighter radius .
Then there a radius with material of 3-pieces of 1-k cordura with some high density closed cell foam in-between. So this is lot Thicker edge, and I using 1" wide type2 herringbone Bias, with a single-needle, and #138 nylon thread.
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Edited yesterday at 06:32 AM by nylonRigging

[Dave9111]

10 hours ago, kgg said:

ii) The binder has no front to back adjustment.

It has some but not much.   I can twist the binder on the two screws that go into the bobbin cover plate and there are two screws hidden but not much.

It came with binder feet but I could not get the binder to the left enough without hitting the binder so I used a different front foot.  I could have cut off part of the foot but that seemed harsh for a test.   As it turned out the bias tape I had wouldn't feed properly.

Its not an ideal setup for sure.

The cup and dowel worked ok for my reel of Rochford binding but I agree wont work long term for this flat wound binding.  I would need to make a support plate / platter beneath the binding.  I would like to be able to bind a 4" circle of material.   Even smaller would be better.

 

[kgg]

2 minutes ago, Dave9111 said:

The cup and dowel worked ok for my reel of Rochford binding but I agree wont work long term for this flat wound binding. 

When you make one have the flat plate spin on a bearing that way you will not be dragging the whole weight of the coil of binding tape and it will be easier to get consistent back tension.

kgg

[Dave9111]

10 hours ago, nylonRigging said:

OK first off, I don't understand this, In the Pic. ?

The tape is called a single fold bias tape by Wawak.   It is a strip of material with both edges folded inwards.   No matter what I do with that binder, the tape is pulled down towards the bottom of the binder.   I can apply tension to it, wind it through the tension wires, try and tension it back and up.  Yet, the tape is still pulled down towards the table.   That tape just doesnt seem to work at all with this binder.

The heavier Rochford binding doesn't do that at all.  

I did order one of those CKPSMS binders that KGG mentioned.   I might try that as well with the lighter Wawak binding.

 

[Dave9111]

9 hours ago, nylonRigging said:

'Radius' Binding. using ( 2 ) R-Angle Binders.

Looks like you have binding down pat!   I never thought about using a double needle machine to do binding.

Is there a definition someplace which defines binding types?  "type-lll grosgrain's, and I use Herringbone Bias binding" etc?

I see grosgrain binding mentioned but it doesn't specify weight or thickness.  When I bought the Wawak bias binding I had no clue as to how heavy the binding would be.

My order at Sailrite is ready for pickup so I will get that today and try it next weekend when I return.

Thanks! 

Edited 20 hours ago by Dave9111

[Dave9111]

11 minutes ago, kgg said:

When you make one have the flat plate spin on a bearing that way you will not be dragging the whole weight of the coil of binding tape and it will be easier to get consistent back tension.

I can do that.   Does anyone make relatively inexpensive binding platters?  

Thanks! 

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Dave9111 said:

I can do that. 

Here is a sketch of a simple platter.

i) Thread 3/8" rod about 12 " long.

ii) 3/8" Nuts. Need  3 of them.

iii) Platter: Can be plastic or metal as long as it is big enough and sturdy enough to hold your bias tape.

iv) 3/8" Bearing: Need one 

v) The mounted to the table I will leave up to you.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Dave9111 said:

I can do that.   Does anyone make relatively inexpensive binding platters?  

Thanks! 

I bought this inexpensive binder platter on Ebay, a couple years ago. I clamps onto the edge of the table.

[nylonRigging]

7 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

The tape is called a single fold bias tape by Wawak.   It is a strip of material with both edges folded inwards.   No matter what I do with that binder, the tape is pulled down towards the bottom of the binder.   I can apply tension to it, wind it through the tension wires, try and tension it back and up.  Yet, the tape is still pulled down towards the table.   That tape just doesnt seem to work at all with this binder.

The heavier Rochford binding doesn't do that at all.  

I did order one of those CKPSMS binders that KGG mentioned.   I might try that as well with the lighter Wawak binding.

 

The binder itself looks like a plain raw edge binder. pretty sure there a difference in raw edge, and double-fold materials for binders . Do you even need to use a double-edge fold binding tape ?, factory woven edge probably is just fine for your finish seam binding . Also. I would think it harder to make a good radius turn also with using  the double-fold, over using a raw edge finish . Even though it a more pliable bias weave, being 'double thickness' is going to lead to tracking issues on stitching bending tight radius .

I do have double-fold attachments of different sizes for double folding cut material strips, but I never use double-fold  binding materials in binding.

Also 'Wawak' .  have actually never bought anything from them, but they look to be a sew supply house and not an actual production Mill . I just typed the single word 'webbing' into the google search. They look to be a heavy payer-$ for brand name placement up-front covering 1st page for search findings . I NOT saying saying Wawak good/bad . I just saying they buy their materials from everywhere on the planet to then stamp their Name on for Retail Sales. I would find out if you buying 'paying' for import or domestic for your materials like bindings and webbing because there is a BIG difference in quality most times.

.

[nylonRigging]

8 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

Is there a definition someplace which defines binding types?  "type-lll grosgrain's, and I use Herringbone Bias binding" etc?

I see grosgrain binding mentioned but it doesn't specify weight or thickness.  When I bought the Wawak bias binding I had no clue as to how heavy the binding would be.

I got into all this side of things on the Para Rigging side of sewing, and to this day it still makes my head spin with the designated 'ID' Mil-Spec labeling of every individual type of webbing, binding, tapes, threads ...etc. It's a Federal Gov. and military labeling that all material must fall into a ( minimum requirement/rating )  of, size, thickness, structural breaking strength, ..etc. I think it even gets into the number of TPI requirements on the Looms that are even doing the weaving. with all this also getting into 'Berry compliance'.. Bla bla bla bla...eyes glaze over....LOL

Getting into this is a 'Rabbit Hole' that you wont see daylight for a week. But like I said in earlier Post. the quality of your binding materials you use will feed and lay so much better if it mil.spec. and US Milled product. Your headaches will be minimal with binding. This plus getting the proper binder, set-up proper to your machine . Grosgrain, most common seam bind is 3/4" and 1' width tape, you want to use ' Mil-T-5038H class 1A type lll . 

If you do a order straight from the Mill . Here is a pic. of the common label with the nomenclature of spec compliance .

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[nylonRigging]

14 hours ago, Dave9111 said:

 I never thought about using a double needle machine to do binding.

Double-Needle does leave a great finish look for edge binding .
Also you talking about 'Sailrite' for binders ? and I think their main machine line is all Drop-Feed Walkers, and they push binders for that system. That a little different Feed than your Pfaff Compound-Feed machine . The Non-Walk feed of the inner foot and Needle shaft of Drop-feed walk is easier to set-up a simple stationary Binder on positioning it right in there tight to needle.

AND .. have you ever thought of just getting an old Singer single-needle or double-needle Like an Old.. 111 112 or, 211 212 in a ( Needle Feed ) to learning on for Binder set-up, and Binding ? . Needle-feed does a nice job for binding. People pass over the old needle-feed Singers all the time when looking for a old compound-feed, and most are sold pretty cheep.
Needle-feed does a great job binding. the old Singer feet, dogs, plates are plentiful and cheep. Setting up Binders on them is a little more forgiving and easier learning curve. Everything you build on your sew binding technique from that will translate over bigtime for latter down the road. along with setting up other binders.
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I cant edit/add anything to last Post I made, I guess I timed-out for that.
For a mil-spec  Nylon Herringbone/bias . I pretty sure it's  a  '  Mil-W-4088 ' . I use that for years and it tops for way it feeds and finish presentation.
Also it Never Hurts to just ask suppliers to mail sample of binding materials if you not sure what it is, for you to see if it is what you want to use before a larger order.

Pic. of some of the 3/4" and 1" ,on the Mil-W-4088 Nylon binding, and the weave look.
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