Website of Tree Maker Rod Nikkel

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

I just wanted to let everyone know about the new website of my Tree Maker Rod Nikkel. I havent been around the boards very long so I have not seen much on saddle trees. The only discussion I have read about is factory Trees. I feel that factory trees have their place, in factory saddles, custom saddles need to be made by custom makers by hand not with duplicators and cnc machines. That is my feelings and now I will get off my soap box. Anyway here is their website http://www3.telus.net/nikkelsaddletrees

Some other great tree makers are Warren Wright and Bill Bean just to name a few others. There are some other custom saddlemakers out there that make their own trees, but not for resale that is why I did not name them.

[bruce johnson]

Snakehorse,

Thanks for posting that link. It is handier for me than thumbing through the back issues of LCSJ to find part of the articles that they had a few years ago, plus the website has some additions. Well worth reading again.

Bruce Johnson

[David Genadek]

I have read through Mr. Nikkel's site and must say it is on of the most eloquent stating of the current paradigm for building trees, I have heard to date. Although he is very much in line with the same backward thinking that the rest of the tree makers are using. His explanation of fitting the horse clearly shows why the industry is in the state it is in. The three main points where he is way off are the twist, rock and orientation.

Lets start with twist. Anyone that has looked at a sampling of horses cannot deny that twist is a major factor. The idea that you can have one twist and adjust it through the gullet to fit a range of horses is preposterous. If the range of angle change wither to rib cage were consistent then you could accomplish what he is saying by altering the angles of the arches. Unfortunately both the range and rate of change differ dramatically. I have attached tracing of two backs and super imposed one on top the other to demonstrate this point. So why do the tree makers persist in this absurd notion? Because building and creating the complex shape is no small feat. In order to accommodate different fronts and cantles it is necessary to create common surfaces. These surfaces are important and changing the twist alters them. For the tree industry to acknowledge the reality of twist would mean a mass proliferation of patterns and it would add many layers of complexity to the ordering process and their organizational structure.

Point two, is rock, yes rock does change significantly but there is a direct relationship between twist and rock. When this relationship is ignored we start micro fitting and instead of fitting the horse’s actual shape we are then fitting a moment in time and subjecting our work to the influence of the rider, ferrier, dentist, and bit maker. You can only get an accurate assessment of the rock if you consider the how well the horses ring of muscles is being used, you should never fit a tree to a horse who is being ridden upside down meaning the rider is tightening the top line and stretching the underline. When those factors are included you will find there is a limited amount rocks needed.

Point three is orientation, which is perhaps the most misunderstood element of tree construction. Mr. Nikkel states that there should be a ½†difference in the spread in the front of the saddle to the rear. The rear being narrower. He does state that this is how he does it. In this statement he is essentially telling you that none of his trees will fit a real horse. Horse’s bodies have a horizontal orientation, unlike us; their spine is horizontal to sea level. Because of this they can be horizontal to differing degrees and it is the job of the tree to be the exact opposite orientation of the horse in order to level the saddle seat. A horse’s orientation can be found by locating the base of the neck and comparing it to the point of hip. The only time you would ever want the spread of the bars to be narrower in the rear would be if you had a horse that was up hill oriented. I personally have never seen a horse with this conformation. Gaited horses have a close to level conformation and most Quarter horses have a down hill conformation. There fore no tree made should have a narrower spread in the rear.

I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place.

David Genadek

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

David,

Can I ask what trees you are using and can you post pictures. Also I read about your experance with leather, but what is you history with horses, example riding and handling. From you post I know you are very opinioniated and I am not trying to start anything I just want to know where you are coming from with your comments. Thank you

Ashley

[David Genadek]

Ashley,

I make my own trees. I work with a 3d designer on creating the shapes. Our bar profiles are created by modeling a sampling of backs in the computer. We pull the profiles from real backs and then add the space we need for movement. We cut our parts on a five Axis router.

I do not consider myself a horseman but I try to learn what I need to know from the best people I can find.

My Anatomy and biomechanics back ground come primarly from Deb Bennett PHDEquinestudies.org My primary influance in regard to rider position has come from Peggy Cummings Peggycummings.com I have been influenced by many horseman Harry Whitney HarryWhitney.com, Mark Rashid MarkRashid.com but my heaviest influence in regard to horseman ship has been my better half Liz Graves LizGraves.com My opinions are hard won and very defendable so I don't mind challanges in he least .

David Genadek

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

David,

First off I am not intending to challenge your ideas, I just try to ask questions so I might be a better saddle maker. In my shop If someone came into my shop and asked to for me to build a saddle fit to one horse I would try to change their mind about that, and try to get them to get the saddle built to fit the body style of their horse, do you do this or do want to build to just one horse and have that saddle only fit that horse and if you do what age do you recommend this to be done?

This is my reasoning. when I worked for a cutting horse trainer we kept 70 head of horses in the barn which rotated on a regular basis, I had to ride about 10 horses a day and I only could afford to have one or two saddles. So I had them made so they fit all the horses that I had to ride and not just one. In my experance people do not own the same horse though out thier lives and a saddle is an investment that they do keep a long part of their lives. that is why I do not recommend to fit a saddle to only one horse. What are your thoughts on this or anyone elses.

Ashley

[bruce johnson]

Ashley,

I am going to bite, and play the devil's advocate a little here. If someone came into my shop and wanted a saddle to fit one horse, I would do it (although it hasn't happened yet). Reason being - that is what separates us from Stateline, National Roper's Supply, the feedstore, and everyone else. In other words, that is the very definition of "custom". If that horse is pretty far out of the norm, and I was pretty sure that saddle would not fit many others, I would tell them that. But I still feel if they want to ride THAT (emphasis not shouting) horse, there is no reason not to order a tree to fit that horse. No reason to make that horse go in something he is not fitted for, if that is what the owner wants. We do it for the topside of the saddle everytime, why not do it for the horse? Bespoke shoe and boot makers do this fitting as a matter of course, and don't concern themselves with the owner's economics. That said, I realize that many owner's are limited by economics, and may not get every bell and whistle saddle option on an oddball treed saddle. They may feel that they could get $2500 (or whatever your base price is) worth of enjoyment or use out of a plainer saddle that does fit that horse over the remainder of its lifetime. If that is not an economic option, then they really weren't looking for "custom" to begin with.

That said, I understand where you are coming from. I too worked for a cutting trainer, and had to make do with a couple saddles. Several similar horses can be closely fit with the same couple of saddles. My current customers are mostly barrel racers, ropers, and cowboys moving up from factory saddles, or else they wore out the old handmade they were the 2nd owner on. Those customers you have to fit the middle ground and hope they can pad up the difference. The economic reality is that some kids have to wear hand-me-down shoes, and some horses wear hand-me-down saddles. The fit may not be perfect, but hopefully the right socks or pad will get it done.

Bruce Johnson

[David Genadek]

I agree fully with both of you. You have to push me pretty hard to get me to make a tree for a single horse. The fact is there is a limited number of rib cage shapes and most horses will fall into one of them. The biggest reason most people think they need a custom tree is because they have been riding the horse upside down.

I have three shapes that will fit most horses. The problem is most tree makers are focusing on gullet width and not bar shape so they don't even offer the bare minnimum. I'm dead against micro fitting but I am for the industry doing the research needed to identify ribcage shapes and then doing the necessary retooling to accomadate them. Mr Nikkel's focus on the hand hole area is a better focus than what everyone else is doing because it allows the tree maker to put enough flair on the bar.

We get a lot of horses through here and the majority will use one of two shapes so what you guys are saying about two saddles is very reasonable from what I have seen. Around here we use three regularly and I will need to add a few more that will get used infrequently but we deal with more breeds than most training facilities would.

The real question is with modern technology can we improve the shapes? I say yes but at the same time I am fully aware of the constraints that have been on the treemakers and I am all to aware of the complexity of the situation .

David Genadek

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

It is interesting what you can find sometimes when you Google your name. This time we found someone saying that none of our trees would fit a real horse. On another thread there is another person saying that saddle fitting doesn't have much to do with the saddle. And there are a couple (thank you) who appreciate our efforts to communicate some information. It is with a bit of trepidation that we have decided to post here, but we felt that we did want to respond from our viewpoint.

Just to let people know more about where we are coming from - Our web site was originally set up so we could direct our customers to it. We wanted to communicate more easily with our customers, to explain how we build our trees, why we build them the way we do, and how we think about saddle trees (and life). Our information articles come from our opinions, based on our experience and the information we have gained over 11 years of hand crafting individual saddle trees as a full time profession. We enjoy learning more, which is why we keep detailed records on each and every tree we build, why we have a library of different horse's back shapes, and why we listen to saddle makers. We also enjoy helping others who are interested to learn more, or at least think about things from a different view point, whether they agree with us or not. This was the purpose of our website.

Rod comes from a working cowboy background, and while we build for many different types of horses and uses, a fair proportion of our trees go into working rigs all over North America. These saddles are used hard, for long hours, by people who make their living on horse back. The comments we receive back are consistently positive, and we are thankful for that fact. If our trees work for these guys, we know they will work for the pleasure riders too.

A big part of running a small business is knowing who your customers are. What does this person want to accomplish with their riding? Some people just enjoy being with their horses and pleasure riding. They don't generally ride for great lengths of time or ask a lot of their horses. (They also don't generally order custom saddles, unless they have way too much money.) Some people want to build their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be in whatever discipline they prefer. They tend to ride each horse for relatively short time periods (often less than an hour), but they ride intensely, concentrating on their horse and his body, asking him to be as specific as possible in the maneuver they are working on at all times. (They may want a custom saddle specifically geared to their discipline. Most of the specifics would have to do with the top of the saddle, though riding a horse which is always being asked to move in collection makes a difference on the bottom side too.) A lot of our customers don't go out to ride with the sole intention of spending time with their horse, or building their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be. That is part of what they do (and some do it very well), but it is often a side benefit. The main goal is generally to check that 15 miles of fence, round up a few hundred head of cattle, or get those cows doctored for foot rot. The horse's back will change shape with every one of those hundreds of steps he will take in that four to twelve hour period. Sometimes his hind end will be underneath him and he will round up more, especially if he needs to turn quickly. Sometimes he will be going flat out to get past that cow. Sometimes he will be asked to concentrate hard on his job, and sometimes he will be allowed to relax as he moves between more intense jobs. This is the horse and rider we build for.

That is why we use the wood we do, the thickness of hide that we do, and the construction techniques that we do. (We don't say that you can't break one of our trees, but we haven't had a broken one come back yet. We do say if you do break one, we want to hear the story, because it will be entertaining!)

That is also why we build our trees to fit the way they do. It is very true that the closer the shape of the entire bar is to the shape of the horses back the more stable the saddle will be. But it is the wither pocket that is the best area of the horse's back to hold the saddle in place when a 1000 lb animal at the end of the rope tries to pull it sideways. We build trees so the front bar pad fits into the wither pocket behind the shoulder (without interfering with the shoulder). This then determines where the rest of the tree is positioned on the horse's back, which dictates the shape of the bars, with all their variables. We work hard to fit the shape of the horse with our starting point as the wither pocket. But since every tree maker does things differently, even if they position their tree in the same place on the horse's back, they will all be somewhat different in their basic fit, and the trees need to be seen to be evaluated.

A tree that is made to be placed in a different spot on a horse's back will have bars that are shaped very differently because they are made to fit a different area of the back. A tree that is made to accomplish a different purpose may or may not be shaped differently again. It is not that one shape or place on the back is right and one is wrong. They are just different, because they are being used for different purposes.

We sure don't claim to corner the market on knowledge. But we do have a lot of experience and a lot of satisfied customers. And our customers are not just the riders but the (generally) more knowledgeable saddle makers, some of whom have been building for many years and are highly regarded in their field. So to read that someone who, to our knowledge, has never seen one of our trees, let alone tried it on a few horses, bluntly condemns us, saying that we are "way off" and that "none of (our) trees will fit a real horse" is disturbing, to put it mildly. It also pushes the boundaries of "not using this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly defamatory, inaccurate or abusive" as stated in the Forum Rules and Terms. It is fine to have strong opinions and to state them. Let's just state them as such and be respectful in the way we do it.

It will be interesting to continue to read some of the topics here. Bruce's idea of getting ideas and opinions of the different parts of the tree is a great one. Lots of good questions and discussion starter in that first post in Bars and Bottoms. It will be interesting to see where it goes. I am sure we can all learn.

[Blake]

It will be interesting to continue to read some of the topics here. Bruce’s idea of getting ideas and opinions of the different parts of the tree is a great one. Lots of good questions and discussion starter in that first post in Bars and Bottoms. It will be interesting to see where it goes. I am sure we can all learn.

I would like to say "WELCOME" to Rod & Denise and I am sure many of us will be looking forward to their participation.

Best regards

Blake

[bruce johnson]

Rod and Denise.

I am very thankful you are here. I am looking forward to your insight into this whole area. It seems like we all can learn to build on whatever we choose to use, but there is just not much good information on how to choose the tree to start with. That was and still is a major concern of mine. Bill Reis asked me several years ago at a show what I would like to see. My first suggestion was to have a discussion group with some saddle tree makers and saddlemakers so we could all get close to being on the same page. Make it easier for us to communicate with each other. Hasn't happened yet, although Pete Gorrell has done some tree fitting classes.

I am looking forward to your contributions. As far as I can remember, other than your previous articles in LCSJ, there has really never been much information and discussion coming from a tree maker. I welcome it.

Bruce Johnson

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

Denise,

I hope you are ok with me posting your website here. I am just happy with the trees that I have gotten so far and think they are the best trees on the market. I just wanted other people to know about your trees. I am glad that you have responded to comments made about your trees. I believe someone that has worked out of the saddle and builds saddles for those that work out of saddles will never say anything bad about how your trees fit.

Ashley

SnakeHorse Saddle Shop

[David Genadek]

Mr, Nikkel,

My comments were not directed toward you as a personal attack I said: "I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place."

Your paradigm is very much in line with the rest of the industry in fact you are making efforts to expand it in a positive direction. I think you will find that if incorporate twist along with the concept or orientation to what you are currently doing you will find that the rear of the bar can also play an important role in stabalizing the saddle during roping.

Bottom line for me is I have no need for this list. I have my tree company and my saddle company. I have more business than I can keep up with for both companies. I have no need to prove anything to any one. I have learned a lot by working my way through every aspect of this industry and I am willing to share that openly with all of you.

David Genadek

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

David, can you show us some of your trees and saddle that you are building or are having other people build for you which ever it is?

[David Genadek]

My web site is aboutthehorse.com

The saddles you will see are more of a production saddle I have borrowed techiniques from both worlds to try to hit a market between the factory saddle and the custom saddle. The focus of this line is proper fit. You will notice that I am making a cordura saddles also, which was a tough for me to do but that line is now about 50% of the business.

I have e-mailed my 3d guy and asked him do make a few virtual trees up that are semi transparent that you will be able to see the over all shape better. Looking at a picture of a tree really won't tell you a whole lot.

Usually when I question someones credability I google thier name to see what it pops up. Credible people will genererally have quite a bit but you have to sift out the marketing driven promotional aspect and see what people that have worked with them have to say.

David Genadek

[quote name=snakehorse saddler' date='May 5 2007, 04:44 PM' post='4367] David, can you show us some of your trees and saddle that you are building or are having other people build for you which ever it is?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Thank you all for the welcome. We do appreciate that.

Bruce is correct when he says that there isn't a lot of information coming from tree makers. Speaking from the position of someone who hand crafts saddle trees, there are probably a number of reasons for that. One would be that most tree makers we know tend to be relatively solitary people. They don't get a lot of phone calls. They don't work out of store fronts so they don't have people stopping in to visit. They just spend day after day out working in their shops - alone. And they like it that way!! As well, none of the hand crafted tree makers we know of are looking for new customers. That is why if you go on the internet looking for them, there is a severe dearth of information. The saddle making world is a small one, and the people who want to buy this type of tree do all the tree makers advertising for them by word of mouth. No websites needed. With most of the hand makers turning out between 80 and (an incredible) 200 a year, and a lot of the guys who build on these trees having wait lists of months to years, no one needs to take the time to advertise or give out information. They just need to stay in the shop and build! Another reason is that tree making has a lot of technical aspects which are very hard to explain in writing, and can be easily misinterpreted. It is hard enough to show someone who is with you some of these things. Getting it across in words is extremely difficult. There also may still be some of the old school of "don't let anyone else know your trade secrets", but we haven't really met with that. The tree makers we have met and talked with have been open to share how they do things once they know you are really looking to understand how they think and not abuse the information they give you. But maybe the biggest reason is one expressed to us by another maker that we met at Sheridan a few years ago who also makes his living hand building trees. He said something to the effect of, "As soon as you seem to know something, someone is out there to take shots at you and knock you down. I don't need that, so I just keep quiet and build trees."

That is why our website was supposed to be (we were originally told by Telus) non-Google-able. And it wasn't - for about three months. Then it appeared. Such is the internet. It was started to be an information site that was easier, faster and (lets face it) cheaper than mailing out photocopies of our articles as we have been doing for years. The articles started out when I (Denise) heard Rod explaining the same thing over and over to saddle makers on the phone. If figured that if they had something in writing, maybe with pictures, it would be easier to understand. We started with one (that has been reworked multiple times by now) and they have gradually grown over the years. Then one of our customers said, "You can't get this information anywhere else. Why don't you get it published?" That was the incentive behind the LCSJ articles.

If there is one thing you may hear from us over and over again, it is that "Every tree maker does things differently". Our articles apply to our trees and the way we do things, and can't necessarily be extrapolated to others. The numbers given definitely don't apply elsewhere. There are often multiple ways to approach a problem, and multiple ways to solve it. Giving one answer on how we solved it may be interpreted as meaning that the other ways are not as good or wrong, which is not what we want to do. And hence the trepidation in saying anything at all. It is easier just to keep your head down and build trees.

But we also enjoy helping people understand more about trees. It is fun to talk to saddle makers and hear their opinions, learn from their experiences, find out what unusual requests they have had recently and maybe figure out how to do something different to fill them. We enjoy hearing the different accents on the phone and finding out how the weather is all over North America. (Maybe we aren't as solitary as we like to think.) This forum thing is brand new to us. We still need to learn the etiquette and rules, not to mention the technical stuff on how to post. But maybe we can help someone in some way. Or maybe we will just confuse everyone totally. So please, for whatever we post, please remember the disclaimer - "Every tree maker does things differently."

[Regis]

Denise & Rod,

Although I will never be a saddlemaker, I welcome you to this forum and appreciate your method of doing business and sharing ideas. You are amoung people who mostly share what they know and don't claim to know everything (nor the only way that is correct). You mentioned "learning the etiquette" but, in reality, your example already sets a pretty high bar.

I like that "in the shop alone" concept as that is the way I like to work or play.

Again, welcome from a real leatherworking amature but, no amature in life.

Regis

[Romey]

It is interesting what you can find sometimes when you Google your name. This time we found someone saying that none of our trees would fit a real horse. On another thread there is another person saying that saddle fitting doesn’t have much to do with the saddle. And there are a couple (thank you) who appreciate our efforts to communicate some information. It is with a bit of trepidation that we have decided to post here, but we felt that we did want to respond from our viewpoint.

Just to let people know more about where we are coming from - Our web site was originally set up so we could direct our customers to it. We wanted to communicate more easily with our customers, to explain how we build our trees, why we build them the way we do, and how we think about saddle trees (and life). Our information articles come from our opinions, based on our experience and the information we have gained over 11 years of hand crafting individual saddle trees as a full time profession. We enjoy learning more, which is why we keep detailed records on each and every tree we build, why we have a “library†of different horse’s back shapes, and why we listen to saddle makers. We also enjoy helping others who are interested to learn more, or at least think about things from a different view point, whether they agree with us or not. This was the purpose of our website.

Rod comes from a working cowboy background, and while we build for many different types of horses and uses, a fair proportion of our trees go into working rigs all over North America. These saddles are used hard, for long hours, by people who make their living on horse back. The comments we receive back are consistently positive, and we are thankful for that fact. If our trees work for these guys, we know they will work for the pleasure riders too.

A big part of running a small business is knowing who your customers are. What does this person want to accomplish with their riding? Some people just enjoy being with their horses and pleasure riding. They don’t generally ride for great lengths of time or ask a lot of their horses. (They also don’t generally order custom saddles, unless they have way too much money.) Some people want to build their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be in whatever discipline they prefer. They tend to ride each horse for relatively short time periods (often less than an hour), but they ride intensely, concentrating on their horse and his body, asking him to be as specific as possible in the maneuver they are working on at all times. (They may want a custom saddle specifically geared to their discipline. Most of the specifics would have to do with the top of the saddle, though riding a horse which is always being asked to move in collection makes a difference on the bottom side too.) A lot of our customers don’t go out to ride with the sole intention of spending time with their horse, or building their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be. That is part of what they do (and some do it very well), but it is often a side benefit. The main goal is generally to check that 15 miles of fence, round up a few hundred head of cattle, or get those cows doctored for foot rot. The horse’s back will change shape with every one of those hundreds of steps he will take in that four to twelve hour period. Sometimes his hind end will be underneath him and he will “round up†more, especially if he needs to turn quickly. Sometimes he will be going flat out to get past that cow. Sometimes he will be asked to concentrate hard on his job, and sometimes he will be allowed to relax as he moves between more intense jobs. This is the horse and rider we build for.

That is why we use the wood we do, the thickness of hide that we do, and the construction techniques that we do. (We don’t say that you can’t break one of our trees, but we haven’t had a broken one come back yet. We do say if you do break one, we want to hear the story, because it will be entertaining!)

That is also why we build our trees to fit the way they do. It is very true that the closer the shape of the entire bar is to the shape of the horses back the more stable the saddle will be. But it is the wither pocket that is the best area of the horse’s back to hold the saddle in place when a 1000 lb animal at the end of the rope tries to pull it sideways. We build trees so the front bar pad fits into the wither pocket behind the shoulder (without interfering with the shoulder). This then determines where the rest of the tree is positioned on the horse’s back, which dictates the shape of the bars, with all their variables. We work hard to fit the shape of the horse with our starting point as the wither pocket. But since every tree maker does things differently, even if they position their tree in the same place on the horse's back, they will all be somewhat different in their basic fit, and the trees need to be seen to be evaluated.

A tree that is made to be placed in a different spot on a horse’s back will have bars that are shaped very differently because they are made to fit a different area of the back. A tree that is made to accomplish a different purpose may or may not be shaped differently again. It is not that one shape or place on the back is “right†and one is “wrongâ€Â. They are just different, because they are being used for different purposes.

We sure don’t claim to corner the market on knowledge. But we do have a lot of experience and a lot of satisfied customers. And our customers are not just the riders but the (generally) more knowledgeable saddle makers, some of whom have been building for many years and are highly regarded in their field. So to read that someone who, to our knowledge, has never seen one of our trees, let alone tried it on a few horses, bluntly condemns us, saying that we are “way off†and that “none of (our) trees will fit a real horse†is disturbing, to put it mildly. It also pushes the boundaries of “not using this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly…defamatory, inaccurate or abusive…†as stated in the Forum Rules and Terms. It is fine to have strong opinions and to state them. Let’s just state them as such and be respectful in the way we do it.

It will be interesting to continue to read some of the topics here. Bruce’s idea of getting ideas and opinions of the different parts of the tree is a great one. Lots of good questions and discussion starter in that first post in Bars and Bottoms. It will be interesting to see where it goes. I am sure we can all learn.

Thats the kind of logic that would make me want a saddle built from your tree. Very informitive thread, welcome to the forum!

[T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery]

I have read through Mr. Nikkel's site and must say it is on of the most eloquent stating of the current paradigm for building trees, I have heard to date. Although he is very much in line with the same backward thinking that the rest of the tree makers are using. His explanation of fitting the horse clearly shows why the industry is in the state it is in. The three main points where he is way off are the twist, rock and orientation.

Lets start with twist. Anyone that has looked at a sampling of horses cannot deny that twist is a major factor. The idea that you can have one twist and adjust it through the gullet to fit a range of horses is preposterous. If the range of angle change wither to rib cage were consistent then you could accomplish what he is saying by altering the angles of the arches. Unfortunately both the range and rate of change differ dramatically. I have attached tracing of two backs and super imposed one on top the other to demonstrate this point. So why do the tree makers persist in this absurd notion? Because building and creating the complex shape is no small feat. In order to accommodate different fronts and cantles it is necessary to create common surfaces. These surfaces are important and changing the twist alters them. For the tree industry to acknowledge the reality of twist would mean a mass proliferation of patterns and it would add many layers of complexity to the ordering process and their organizational structure.

Point two, is rock, yes rock does change significantly but there is a direct relationship between twist and rock. When this relationship is ignored we start micro fitting and instead of fitting the horse’s actual shape we are then fitting a moment in time and subjecting our work to the influence of the rider, ferrier, dentist, and bit maker. You can only get an accurate assessment of the rock if you consider the how well the horses ring of muscles is being used, you should never fit a tree to a horse who is being ridden upside down meaning the rider is tightening the top line and stretching the underline. When those factors are included you will find there is a limited amount rocks needed.

Point three is orientation, which is perhaps the most misunderstood element of tree construction. Mr. Nikkel states that there should be a ½†difference in the spread in the front of the saddle to the rear. The rear being narrower. He does state that this is how he does it. In this statement he is essentially telling you that none of his trees will fit a real horse. Horse’s bodies have a horizontal orientation, unlike us; their spine is horizontal to sea level. Because of this they can be horizontal to differing degrees and it is the job of the tree to be the exact opposite orientation of the horse in order to level the saddle seat. A horse’s orientation can be found by locating the base of the neck and comparing it to the point of hip. The only time you would ever want the spread of the bars to be narrower in the rear would be if you had a horse that was up hill oriented. I personally have never seen a horse with this conformation. Gaited horses have a close to level conformation and most Quarter horses have a down hill conformation. There fore no tree made should have a narrower spread in the rear.

I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place.

David Genadek

In responce to Mr Genadek

I want to say that I have been building saddles for 25 + years and have used trees by most of the tree makers and Find Rod Nikkle's trees to be VERY SUPERIOR in every way. The quality of the rawhide work is some of the very best The fit of the wood is absolutely the best I have seen. The fit of the trees he has made for me have been very good He is a artisan in wood and rawhide and I feel privelidged to be able to buy trees from him. On top of that he is a gentleman of the first order and his wife Denise is very polite and has always been very understanding and helpful when I had a problem. I have ordered trees from him in the past ,I have trees ordered from him now and I will continue to order trees from him in the future. His trees are easy to build on and have real class look in a the finished saddle. If you are someone who uses a saddle to make a living riding the big country and dont just ride for fun on the weekend you will quickly know what I mean when I say they really fit the horse.Our families have been in ranching all our lives and we know what saddle fit is .The saddles on your website are a totaly different level of saddle from what these are. This forum is for exchanging useful information and not badmouthing someone .

Terry Moore

Medicine Hat Saddlery

[steve mason]

Howdy;

I am new to this forum, looks like a great place to exchange ideas and learn some.

Now in regards to this post about Rod Nikkel and his trees, I have used Rods trees for years, about 80% of my customers are working cowboys, they spend almost all day, every day in a saddle, on many different horses that are in all kinds of condition and age etc. These guys use their horses and saddles hard, they must have saddles that fit, and fit well, that is why I use Rods trees, because I have to use trees of this quality to meet my customers needs. Simply put ROD NIKKEL'S TREES FIT HORSES.

So when I read something like "In this statement he is essentially telling you that none of his trees will fit a real horse." That is just plain wrong, why don't you insult his mother while your at is. Rod and just about every other good craftsmen I have ever met including myself, build because it is our passion, not because it is our job. Sure we make a living at it but the real thing that keeps us going is the passion and desire to continually learn and make better gear, whether it is saddle trees, saddles or whatever. So when you tell another craftsmen that his product which he puts his heart and soul into does not work, well that's just a low blow, and Rod and Denise should get an apology. And to say something like that about Rods trees when you have never made a saddle on one and put it to hard use to find out if it works or not just shows your ignorance. Now I am not trying to start a fight or get into and argument here, I just couldn't sit by and say nothing because what was said was wrong on many levels.

Edited May 29, 2007 by steve mason

[greg gomersall]

Hello; My name is Greg Gomersall. I built my first saddle in 1985 and have been making my living crafting rigs since 1987. As for Rod Nikkel's trees, I was one of Rod's earilist customers and continue to use him to this day. The construction, appearance and fit is exceptional. Today there are more good treemakers than at any point in history. People like Rod & Denise along with Ben Swanke, Rick Reed, Glenn Christman, Bill Bean, Keith Gertsche just to name a few have elevated the level on what is available to the discriminating maker and consumer. Credit goes to people like Walt Youngman, Ray Holes, Chuck Stormes, John Machoud and Dale Harwood for the basic design and construction style these trees are developed along. Each of these current makers does things a little different from one another just as we as saddlers do little things individually. Mr. Genadek thinks that the Bowdens are produceing the best commercially available tree around but I would suggest he take another look. Trying to compare the Bowden's trees to the ones made by the people I have mentioned above is like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche. I realize that someday someone may develop a better type of tree than what we are using today, many have tried in the past and so far all have failed to top a good handmade wood/ rawhide covered tree. I would like to offer Mr. Genadek to oppourtunity to let me put one of his Trees to the test here in the Great Basin Desert. If he is willing to work with to send me a tree which will fit the type of horses I ride (I also ranch on the side) I will build a rig with it to ride myself for a year and then report my thoughts on the results here on this site for everbody to see and read. David does this sound reasonable to you? Thanks Greg

[Alan Bell]

Hey Greg, I met you at the seminar with Dale and Steve in OKC. I would love to see how Mr Genadek's saddle trees compare to the Wade trees that are being made in the Great Basin. As you may recall finding a good tree maker was a big concern for me. It is nearly impossible to find a true Wade tree made east of the Rockies! Most are "Wade style" trees at best. I have found that a lot of the issues Mr. Genadek is speaking of are solved in the Wade trees of the Great Basin including bar width which is one of the main changes Dale made to the Wade at the suggestion of Ray Hunt! I don't think Ray used 3D imaging to come to this point he has just saddled and ridden literally thousands of horses! The Wade saddles I rode made by Great Basin makers on Great basin trees ARE different than what I can find in Texas and further East unless they were shipped from somewhere West of the Rockies (Wyoming is kinda a cutoff point east of the Rockies) I am not a "saddlemaker" but I have made saddles. I am not a Buckaroo but I ride a Wade and rope with a 60' rope and train Bosal a Freno here in the Heart of Texas! I like to be able to say I am riding a horse I raised and trained using a bosal I braided and roping with a reata I braided and sitting a saddle I made. My main issue is that Mr Genadek seems (in my view) to talk down to the others in this forum even when he makes an effort to not do this. Just my point of view. He may be the humblest man God ever put in front of a piece of leather I am just speaking of his post here. I would however like to inquire one thing of him if I may. I read his post saying he is a "Master" Saddle maker and has been considered a "Master" leather carver since his teens. Who bestowed these titles on you and What are their credentials in bestowing these titles? As a martial artist I am wary of folks that claim to be "Masters" (this has nothing to do with my being an American of African descent) In college everyone said I played drums BETTER than the guy that had his "Masters" in percussion because I played Jazz with more feel so since then I have always questioned what and why someone is considered a "Master". A high school drop out once explained music degrees like this "The first person to give out a Degree didn't have one; he was just good at what he did!" Made sense for music; makes sense for leather work! Not trying to offend and I would love to have another source for good quality Wade trees so hopefully David's trees will be just what I have been looking for!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Edited May 30, 2007 by Alan Bell

[steve mason]

Howdy Allen;

If you want some true custom made trees there are some great tree makers you could try, I use the same treemakers as Greg, Rod nikkel and Glenn Christman. Both excellent tree makers, so they have long waiting lists, or they are not taking orders from new customers to keep the waiting list down.

But there are still other options out there. You can try give Ben Swanke of Billings, Mt a call. I have not used his trees personally, but I have heard good things about them, I do know that Don Butler uses them and I think Chas Weldon does(not a 100%positive of that) so if those guys are using them that is a pretty good recommendation. If you would like to try a tree from a custom maker, give Sheridan leather outfitters a call, I know they try to keep a few trees around from custom makers like Rod Nikkel, Rick Reed and Bill Bean, maybe some others to. If you need some contact info for some of these tree makers just PM me.

I guess my point is it doesn't matter where you or your tree maker are from, the trees can be shipped to you, for example both of my tree makers are from Canada and ship around 1/2 of their orders to the US. If my tremakers lived in Italy or Australia I still would get trees from them. Their trees are just that good.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Another tree maker who hand crafts all the excellent trees he puts out is Warren Wright of New Zealand. Dale Harwood acts as his rep. in the States. Warren has been building trees for a lot of years, and can turn out an amazing number of trees in a year considering that they are all individually hand done by himself. I don't think he sleeps a lot.

[Alan Bell]

Thanks for the info on tree makers. I have gotten trees from Warren through Karin Harwood I was hoping to find someone in the US that I could maybe call if I had special request or the like. I like Warrens trees and I know that in the last 20 + yrs Dale has only built one saddle on a tree he did not make and it was a Warren Wright tree at the Seminar Greg and I attended. He had to modify his patterns very little. I will try and find someone in the fall when I caught up and maybe if Rod isn't to swamped I get a chance to use his tree!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell