Heavily Tooled?

[Denise]

The term "individually hand tooled" carries some weight. I like K-Man's idea of the educational area of your website. Concentrating on showing how yours are done (ie. pictures of someone with a maul and tool working on leather) is a positive way to demonstrate the quality of your cases. The lack of such on other websites will then be apparent.

[MADMAX22]

Ashamedly, I haven't always taken the high road in these matters but I am trying to turn over a new leaf. :-)

There is absolutley nothing wrong with educating your customer. Actually I prefer places that do this. When I look at a website for leatherworking and they go into depth about why there stuff is better becuase its hand tooled or hand sewn or anything else like that and they provide pictures and such I think it is far better then a play on words.

Take Art Vincent's site on his quivers, Not only does he explain why his quivers are better then alot of others and shows how much work he has done researching and experimenting with his work but includes why others that have not done this and just throw some random stuff together arent going to get you your money's worth even if it is cheaper. Art Vincent's site Also when you contact him he is usually very helpful with explaining anything to you.

Esantoro's site walden bags shows why his is better then the competition. There are many others as well, holster web sites, bag sites, all kinds of stuff.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to the customer how yours is made and how theres is made, your not bad mouthing, your educating your customer. Even if they dont buy your bag they will be educated on what to look for and will more then likely remember you for your help.

[scooby]

Would not mentioning the fact that you can tool 'anything!'

and machine embossed work can only produce what the die is cut to!

not simply bring home the difference?

For example 'you would like your initals in the middle of the design? - no problem!'

Then again I've never tooled a thing in my life so what do I know!?

[hidepounder]

John,

This is a battle we have all fought at one time or another. I have stopped trying to justify my prices...if I have to explain the differences, I'm probably going to lose the battle! If the customer can't SEE the difference between my work and the less expensive work, how am I going to convince him? I simply smile and state: "Well, now you know what their product is worth!"

Bob

Edited January 29, 2009 by hidepounder

[Windy]

I understand your frustration. After looking at your

web site I would suggest that you heed your own

words. Go and change all those "I made" into the

truth of "my company made". Talk about misleading

as one can get. When I read "I made" I take to mean

you made it personally,when in all reality your team

made it. Of course this is alright since you admit

to not taking the high road all the time.

WINDY

[JohnBarton]

John,

This is a battle we have all fought at one time or another. I have stopped trying to justify my prices...if I have to explain the differences, I'm probably going to lose the battle! If the customer can't SEE the difference between my work and the less expensive work, how am I going to convince him? I simply smile and state: "Well, now you know what their product is worth!"

Bob

I know. I have been down this road many times as well. It's just that I think a lot of the time the dealer and the customers are ignorant of what it is they are selling and what it is they are looking to buy.

When I had my production case business I had to contend with people selling copies of my best designs made in vinyl instead of leather and advertising it as "real leather" at half of my prices.

It wasn't until almost two years later when I threatened to burn one of their cases at my booth at the annual industry show that the offending factory and distributor/importer finally backed down and stopped advertising their knockoffs as leather.

But the damage was done.

In this situation I don't really think that the seller was trying to be deceptive about it inasmuch as I don't think he really understands or appreciates the difference. Now that I have had a discussion with him about it however I think that he intends to keep the description and remains adamant that using the words "heavily tooled" is a proper description of the case.

Doing a quick google search on "tooled leather" images brings up 95% images of hand tooled leather goods and the other 5% are machine stamped/embossed. Doing another google search on "embossed leather" brings up nearly 100% images of machine stamped leather and vinyl. So I don't think that there is any room for him to say that using "heavily tooled" is proper for die stamped embossing.

Anyway, the customer is often in the dark about how things are made or done. This is especially true in pool cue cases and the billiard industry in general.

I have fought this battle many times at shows and I usually take the path of explaining why I build cases the way I do and invite the prospective customers to make their own comparisons. That has worked quite well.

Now, with my rebirth, so to speak, as a custom case maker, I find that I am talking about the decoration aspect of the case far more than the structural and protective aspects. And this then is where this topic comes from because I have been asked flat out why this case costs so much less with more "tooling" than mine. It's clear that the customer can't tell the difference simply by looking at the pictures, and even at that it's hard because the competitor's case is done in a completely different style that obfuscates the detail and craftsmanship in hand tooling vs. die stamping.

So I don't really like to say that the competitor's case (at least in this instance) is not as well done or is worth less. Mainly because I have never had one to inspect so I really can't make that statement. But I can take issue with statements that are misleading, whether intentional or not and that is what I am going to do with an educational page on the web site that details what each type of decorating is and what type of work goes into it. Then I can just point to that page and be done with it. I think that treating my customer as a student is probably the best way to go. With my old company I found that this accomplished two things, 1. it made them more knoweldgeable about cue cases in general and 2. it made them evangelists for my products if they chose to buy them because they had to justify their choice to their friends.

Thanks for the encouragement and for the advice,

John

[jbird]

windy

Your post seems a bit unfair to me he clearly sights his teams invovlment in his products and once he has gone in to that fully you understand what he means when he says I made, it's like walt Disney saying I made these moveis, and further more he is not saying I and only me it isn't at all the same thing.

Josh

[JohnBarton]

I understand your frustration. After looking at your

web site I would suggest that you heed your own

words. Go and change all those "I made" into the

truth of "my company made". Talk about misleading

as one can get. When I read "I made" I take to mean

you made it personally,when in all reality your team

made it. Of course this is alright since you admit

to not taking the high road all the time.

WINDY

I will definitely go back and look at it. I do need to review what I write on the website from time to time as things change. Sometimes I deliberately write "I made" instead of "we made" because the thing I am talking about is in fact something that I made, be it the design from concept through to actual piece, or even something that I did all by myself. Generally when I say "I made" then I am speaking of something that came to fruition through my direction that is unique and fresh.

I just went back to see if I could find any thing that was misleading and I have to say that from the front page on I have been real clear abotu the fact that I do not work alone. However I do take 100% credit for the existence of JB Cases and how they are built. I don't find it to be misleading in the least if once in a while on the site I say something like "cases I build" because these are cases that "I" build in the sense that they would not exist but for me creating them in my mind first and bringing together the talent and tools to get them done. It really depends on context and in the context of the site I really don't think anyone who reads through it could come to the impression that I am working alone building cases.

However, if you would point out whatever really jumps out at you as coming across as misleading then I will be happy to look at it and rewrite it so that it is clear. Your point is well noted and I will certainly be reviewing the site in depth to insure that I am not leading anyone into thinking that I am doing all this work by myself. That is the last thing I would want.

Thank you for bringing this up.

John

[JohnBarton]

P.S. Windy,

When I said I haven't always taken the high road in situations like these it wasn't meant to say that I have been deliberately misleading but instead to mean that I have often been confrontational and frank about the quality differences between my products and the competition's. This is something that I could have handled with much more class and grace and diplomacy and tact.

Pool cues generally run from the hundreds of dollars to the hundreds of thousands. I approach cue case making from the standpoint that it should protect the cue as much as possible for the type of case it is. My colleagues don't always see it that way or they have a different idea of what amount of protection is needed.

Most of them focus more on the look of the product rather than the function. I have been the opposite and have fought many battles in the "form follows function" war as pertains to cue cases.

I'd like to think that those battles have resulted in generally better cue cases from all case makers as well as more informed consumers. But I know that my reach is only so much and my style surely turned a lot of people off with the delivery. That's what I meant by taking the low road.

Five years ago I wouldn't have asked you all for advice. I'd already be attacking the other guy on the other forum and ripping him and his description to shreds. ;-)

[BillB]

All,

I have found this thread to be very interesting and it raises more questions than I could even begin to answer. The problem for me begins with the basic definition of a "tool". The knife I use and the carving tools I use are tools and I use my hands. There are several ways to do embossing starting with a Hand embosser, to a mechanical embosser powered by hand to a mechanical embosser powered by an electric motor, but it is still just a tool. If I tool belt blank (probably punched out by a machine) with Hand Tools and then use the motorized edger to finish it, is it Hand Made, Machine Made, Hand Tooled ????? With the introduction of the Laser into the mix, what additional confusion will be created?

I like the idea of fully explaining how one makes the article under consideration since I can then stay true to my heart and spirit. It is then up to the buyer to decide if they want to buy or not, and that has always been up to the buyer.

BillB.