drill my sewing holes?

[MsDragonfly]

I like to hand sew my holsters and don't use the stitching awl...just 2 needles and waxed thread.

-Can I just pre-drill my stitch holes with my dremel tool?

-Does it matter if the drill bit size matches the thread or not...(can stitching holes actually be too big or too small?)?

-How do I determine or choose the correct distance from stitch hole to stitch hole? Some use 3/16 of an inch and some do 1/4", whats the deal with distance?

Thanks for all the help, I'm just tired of guessing and assuming things...time to learn what is right and wrong.***Lisa

[Art]

Hi Lisa,

If drilling leather was the proper method, then you would see sewing machines with drills instead of needles. When you drill, you remove some of the leather, so that hole is not going to close around the thread and hold and protect it. That being said, I started that way, and I know a lot of folks who still do it that way, and hey, their work looks good. You might not want to do that on something you are entering in a guild competition though.

Art

I like to hand sew my holsters and don't use the stitching awl...just 2 needles and waxed thread.

-Can I just pre-drill my stitch holes with my dremel tool?

-Does it matter if the drill bit size matches the thread or not...(can stitching holes actually be too big or too small?)?

-How do I determine or choose the correct distance from stitch hole to stitch hole? Some use 3/16 of an inch and some do 1/4", whats the deal with distance?

Thanks for all the help, I'm just tired of guessing and assuming things...time to learn what is right and wrong.***Lisa

[MsDragonfly]

Art,

what way should I be stitching and/or making my stitch holes then? Its important to me that I do things right and that my products/holsters are strong and durable.***Lisa

Edited February 11, 2009 by MsDragonfly

[celticleather]

Take a look at the tutorials here - http://www.bowstock.co.uk/tutorials.html. They are an excellent introduction to the proper (or should I say traditional) methods of stitching.

[tonyc1]

6 stitches to the inch, but if it's thin, use 7 or 8.

Tony.

[cem]

You also might want to pick up this book The Art of Hand Sewing by Al Stohlman, it should help you to learn what you want to know. I know it's helped me a great deal, you can get it from Tandy.

Cheers,

Clair

[Rawhide]

I'm a big supporter of hand stitching and I use an awl with two needles to do it. The 'proper' way is described in Al Stohlman's book, the Art of Handsewing Leather. However, decent instruction can be found on the interweb. Using a dremel is a fast way to do it, but the results of the holes on the back side of the project will be unpredictable. Yes a hole can be too big or too small. I have two diamond shaped awls that I use regularly, along with a set of overstitch wheels.

The overstitch wheels layout the locations for the holes. there are several sizes. for a heavy weight leather, 8 oz and up, I use 5, 6, or 7 stitches per inch (spi), for medium leather, 4 to 6 oz, I use 8 or 9 spi, and for light weight leather, I use 10, 11, 12 etc, spi.

For holsters, you're probably looking at 6 spi, and a four prong stitching chisel is not going to go through that thickness of leather stack (plus it makes the holes too big). you'll need a sharp awl, and the overstitch wheel.

Good luck!

[MsDragonfly]

Thanks everyone. the tutorial post was very interesting and helpful.

Where does one purchase a good sharp awl of two sizes?***Lisa

[TwinOaks]

Oh no! The "which AWl?" question!!!

I'll save everyone a bunch of typing and list the top three answers:

1 Bob Douglas

2 Bob Douglas

3 Bob Douglas

However, if you can't get a Douglas awl, the Osborne from Tandy can work. As it comes from Tandy, it's a little big (wide) in cross-section. This is easily remedied with a Dremel and a sanding disk or grind stone attachment. After reshaping, sharpen on a stone, and strop it. If you find the length a little long, you can stack some washers (leftovers from hole punching) on the blade to take up some space. The washers also keep the ferrule of the awl from marking the leather.

The "hand sewing kit" from Tandy has some good info, but the blades are really too large for hand stitching- not bad for lacing, but not for stitching. You could modify the blade on it as well, but I don't know how good the steel is, so take your chances.

[Rawhide]

Thanks everyone. the tutorial post was very interesting and helpful.

Where does one purchase a good sharp awl of two sizes?***Lisa

see this thread

Edited February 12, 2009 by Rawhide

[TrooperChuck]

On page 95 of his book, Saddle Maker's Shop Manual, Harry Adams Jr. says this about drilled holes:

"Drilled holes are used only by the motivationally challenged, the uninformed, and the ignorant."

When I was first learning about leather work I experimented with using a drill, but I was never satisfied. Not only do drills remove leather, they remove it REALLY fast! Usually too fast to correct a misplaced hole.

An awl pushes the leather aside, so it closes up around the thread, AND if I see my awl is not coming out where I wanted it, I can back out and reposition it without leaving a big ugly hole.

[MADMAX22]

Pardon me but doesnt an awl cut the leather. The only thing that pushes the leather out of the way is a round pointed like a scratch awl. A stitching awl is sharpened on its edges so its like a four bladed knife allmost. This still cuts a hole in the leather however you do it in a fasion so that the hole is slit at a angle and when the thread is drawn thru you are (if the correct size awl is used) filling this slit with the thread. The leather doesnt really close back up.

Now is removing a small amount of leather completely or just cutting it make any difference in structeral ability I am not sure but I am thinking if you drill the proper size holes that it wont effect it any more then cutting the same size hole. In theory a round hole would be less prone to tearing then a slit like say from a awl but awls have been used for some time and the things seem to hold pretty darn good so.

[tonyc1]

With a drill you're actually removing a small amount of material whereas with an awl you wont.

[MADMAX22]

With a drill you're actually removing a small amount of material whereas with an awl you wont.

Understood thats not in debate. However Im wondering if just because you remove a small amount or cut it which one effects it more. If you cut a small hole even if you push those fibers aside they are still not attached to anything so what good are they doing.

Im a more scientific person so sometimes things like this I like having a reason or some proof OTHER then someone saying that it is this way just because he was taught that way by someone else who was taught that way. In most cases the handed down method works the best however sometimes we have a more modern way of doing something that could work as well if not better. Not allways the case but sometimes.

[Rawhide]

Understood thats not in debate. However Im wondering if just because you remove a small amount or cut it which one effects it more. If you cut a small hole even if you push those fibers aside they are still not attached to anything so what good are they doing.

Im a more scientific person so sometimes things like this I like having a reason or some proof OTHER then someone saying that it is this way just because he was taught that way by someone else who was taught that way. In most cases the handed down method works the best however sometimes we have a more modern way of doing something that could work as well if not better. Not allways the case but sometimes.

A point of clarification. A scratch awl is not the same as a diamond awl. The scratch all is completely round and tapers to a point. The diamond awl is specifically for stitching. The awl pushes the material to the side and it will close some, not completely, but it will close....which is one reason the 'proper' technique is to pierce & stitch one hole at a time. the strength of the different holes has been debated to death, however my argument would not be the hole itself, but where it ends up on the back of the project. I can't control a drill like I can an awl. I tried the drill, but found that my holes were all over the place on the back side and my stitches looked like connect the dots. In this case, for me at least, the old fashioned method works best, hands down. I don't even use a four prong punch anymore on thin leather.

[bruce johnson]

Another mechanical thing to consider is that drilling will scorch or at least heat the holes up enough to harden the edges of the holes. Those hard corners will fray thread as you pull them through. You can avoid this to some degree by drilling slow, and allowing the bit to cool between holes, but still happens. Also the drill holes have to be large enough to allow the passage of the needle, and like has been already pointed out, won't close back up to any degree. There won't be as much binding on the threads to help keep them in place or to keep grunge from collecting in the larger holes and degrading thread faster. The awl holes will allow passage of a needle and then the next stitch if properly placed at an angle will help to close the slit up due to pressure from the flat side of the blade opening up and then the thread in the next hole.

All this said it still comes down to technique. Some guys can drill small holes, use smaller needles and make thinner waxed ends and look alright. It looks better than the guy who shoves a larger awl to the hilt and makes a hole you could throw the needle through with a doubled up loop of binder twine.

[TrooperChuck]

Bruce:

Are you saying I WASN'T supposed to recycle all my used hay baling twine???? Dang! Now I guess I gotta go buy some real thread....

LOL Your analogy about needles and binder twine was great.

[ClayB]

A stitching awl is sharpened on its edges so its like a four bladed knife allmost.

Verlane DesGrange used to teach a lot about hand stitching. In one of her files on awls, she showed how an awl is supposed to be sharpened. Only two of the edges are sharp and actually cut the leather, the other two edges just push the leather out of the way so that a needle and thread can be pushed through the hole.

(if Johanna reads this, and says it's ok, I'll attach Verlane's pdf file on awls here)

[MADMAX22]

A point of clarification. A scratch awl is not the same as a diamond awl. The scratch all is completely round and tapers to a point. The diamond awl is specifically for stitching. The awl pushes the material to the side and it will close some, not completely, but it will close....which is one reason the 'proper' technique is to pierce & stitch one hole at a time. the strength of the different holes has been debated to death, however my argument would not be the hole itself, but where it ends up on the back of the project. I can't control a drill like I can an awl. I tried the drill, but found that my holes were all over the place on the back side and my stitches looked like connect the dots. In this case, for me at least, the old fashioned method works best, hands down. I don't even use a four prong punch anymore on thin leather.

True, sorry I wasnt sure if I described it properly but was just trying to use it as a example.

Another mechanical thing to consider is that drilling will scorch or at least heat the holes up enough to harden the edges of the holes. Those hard corners will fray thread as you pull them through. You can avoid this to some degree by drilling slow, and allowing the bit to cool between holes, but still happens. Also the drill holes have to be large enough to allow the passage of the needle, and like has been already pointed out, won't close back up to any degree. There won't be as much binding on the threads to help keep them in place or to keep grunge from collecting in the larger holes and degrading thread faster. The awl holes will allow passage of a needle and then the next stitch if properly placed at an angle will help to close the slit up due to pressure from the flat side of the blade opening up and then the thread in the next hole.

All this said it still comes down to technique. Some guys can drill small holes, use smaller needles and make thinner waxed ends and look alright. It looks better than the guy who shoves a larger awl to the hilt and makes a hole you could throw the needle through with a doubled up loop of binder twine.

That makes alot of sense on how you described issues that could happen with the drill. Thanks for your input.

I would like to add that I have tried both and I use the awl method or traditional method. I usually get really good results. I have however used the drill method when I was sewing a multi layered project and I must say using a 5/64" drill gave me a very nice looking stitch just not the same style as the awl does. Ill still use the awl for 98% of my projects. I just like to figure out more I guess on somethings.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Anyone who doubts the memory of leather to close up around the thread needs to try and sew a cantle binding or three layers of 15oz leather (two to represent the seat and cantle back and one to represent the two layers of the cantle binding). If you try and make five or six holes with your awl and sew through them, by the time you get to the third or fourth hole you will need pliers to pull your needle through. This happens in a matter of seconds and is why proper handsewing requires making one hole at a time. It is pretty much guaranteed that you could drill a hundred holes in leather and not have to use pliers once! As Bruce mentioned, this will allow dirt to accumulate in the holes around the thread and will eventually erode your thread. On top of that, there is nothing prettier and more professional looking than finely handstitched leather.

Darc

[antipaladin]

I've used the spacing wheels but I much prefer the pricking irons..they really line up the stitches well. I use 8 stitches per inch for holsters and functional belts and 12 for detailed/decorative stitching (with appropriately thinner thread). I've seen a lot of people use the thickness of the leather as a guide for how far in from the edge to stitch.

there is nothing prettier and more professional looking than finely handstitched leather.

Darc

Absolutely...nothing says more about the quality of an item and the skill of the craftsman more than fine handstitching and edging.

[chestercheeto]

My Dad had two hand drills that went as fast as you turned them that he used for making stitching holes.One drill you go up and down that makes the drill bit turn...while the second one has a hand crank you turn.I tried both on scrap leather..and I like the up and down one best.The drill bit on either is small enough to just get a needle thru.Perhaps these are better than using the electric ones where one can control the speed? I can post a pic of them is interested!

[Kevin]

I've never tried it, but some guys use a small nail instead of a drill bit when stitching cantles. Personally, I've got to have that twist in my stitch that I think you can only get with an awl.

Kevin