Q about a machine

[TwinOaks]

I've decided to invest in a good machine, and have done a little research lately. I think I've settled on a Toro3K, or possibly a Cowboy 441 clone, as either will be more than capable for making holsters and some tack. I spoke to someone at Neels (Ryan?) the other day and discussed the similarities/differences of the two. I'd also recieved a recommendation for a Neels model 5, but I'm pretty sure I want the compound/needle feed to avoid excessive marking on the leather when I have grain out on both sides.

The Artisan website also advertises it's abilitiy to sew lighter leathers with a needle change. Is the Toro3k too much machine, even stepped down to a smaller needle, for sewing bags, purses, and wallets? I know very little about sewing machines and will only be able to afford one (more) at this time. I currently have a Viking 6440 (thanks, Ma) and am having trouble with the bottom of the stitches laying flat instead of being 'locked' in the hole.

I appreciate any input, and add a further question: What thread sizes should I be using with the Viking for wallet construction?

Edited February 22, 2009 by TwinOaks

[rdb]

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

[esantoro]

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

I find that with my 441 a slotted flat needle plate sans feeddog is a necessity. I also think that when going to a 24 needle or smaller it is also very useful to shim the spacing ring.

RDB, the next time you have the spacing ring out on your toro, could you measure the thickness with a caliper?

I think it would be worth paying attention to how close your needle passes the hook. Smaller needles will be farther from the hook. In my experience, slight grazing is ideal and will help ensure loops are properly formed.

I also think that for lighter thread, leather and smaller needles that it is also worth considering the removal of the spring in the bobbin case (not the tension clip but the spring that pushes the bobbin out of the casing). In my experience, that spring alone pushes the bobbin against the steel bar of the bobbin case housing causing too much friction on the bobbin as it rotates. This isn't noticeable on thick leather with thick thread and a large needle, but it is noticeable when you work with the lighter stuff.

But, as always, Art is the master here.

ed

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

I find that with my 441 a slotted flat needle plate sans feeddog is a necessity. I also think that when going to a 24 needle or smaller it is also very useful to shim the spacing ring.

RDB, the next time you have the spacing ring out on your toro, could you measure the thickness with a caliper?

I think it would be worth paying attention to how close your needle passes the hook. Smaller needles will be farther from the hook. In my experience, slight grazing is ideal and will help ensure loops are properly formed.

I also think that for lighter thread, leather and smaller needles that it is also worth considering the removal of the spring in the bobbin case (not the tension clip but the spring that pushes the bobbin out of the casing). In my experience, that spring alone pushes the bobbin against the steel bar of the bobbin case housing causing too much friction on the bobbin as it rotates. This isn't noticeable on thick leather with thick thread and a large needle, but it is noticeable when you work with the lighter stuff.

But, as always, Art is the master here.

ed

[2MadJacks]

I too have the toro 3k and I just wanted to let you know that it will sew with threads as light as 69 and as heavy as 415 with just a swap of the needle and a minor adjustment in tesion. this machine sews very well. James

You can download the manual at the artisansew.com

[esantoro]

I too have the toro 3k and I just wanted to let you know that it will sew with threads as light as 69 and as heavy as 415 with just a swap of the needle and a minor adjustment in tesion. this machine sews very well. James

You can download the manual at the artisansew.com

MadJacks,

What size needle are you using with the 69 thread?

ed

[rdb]

I read the manual 2Mad, but I have not had the simple success you have. For the record, I have never tried #69 thread, but with lighter than 207, I have not been able to use it on the leathers I have, without adjustments beyond the simple tension change you suggest. Too much pressure foot, too little. Too much bobbin tension, etc. I'm not saying it can't be done in a pinch, but for me it's too much rigermarole in my day. Maybe Artisan Dave can suggest a course of action. They haven't been wrong yet when asked.

[Art]

Hi Mike,

The Viking (Husqvarna) is a good machine, just don't try and make it do too much, it isn't built to be doing anything but light leathers. I've seen big 441s that will sew anything from a 3/4" stack to a dollar bill, and with a little adjustment they really can, wait a minute, that's impossible, so here's the catch. It can sew all those different thicknesses WITH THE SAME NEEDLE AND THREAD. I've seen it at shows, they sew a piece or three or four of heavy skirting, then pull out a piece of 4oz and run that around, then go back to the stack, neat trick. Now look at the the sew-offs, on the thin piece, the bobbin thread is laying on the top, but it impresses folks buying their first machine who don't notice this; they don't realize they won't be using 346 thread and a 230/26 needle to sew wallets. So when they switch to 69 thread and a 100/16 needle, they are more than a little surprised that they are skipping a bunch of stitches and even worse things start happening.

The above being said, a good mechanic who is remotely familiar with a 441, can set the machine up to sew with 46 thread and a 80/12 or 90/14 needle (if indeed the needle bar will hold it) in a half hour or so, but a smaller machine might do a better job overall. The shuttle and hook is really too large for that kind of thing, and 10 or 12 spi might actually be out of the 441 range a little bit.

So, this is why folks end up with 2 or 3, or 4, or more machines. Most folks don't need a post machine or a patcher, but try to run a repair business without one and you end up doing a lot of hand stitching. Your first machine needs to be sized for the majority of your work, the next machine has to be matched to your next largest quantity of work, and so on. The 441 machines can be setup to sew about a three needle size range reliably, they are always setup to sew the largest needle in the range where the hook just barely touches the needle, and I mean barely. So, set it up to sew a 230/26 and it will sew a 180/24 ok. YMMV. The thread has to match the needle, so you can't get away with running 69 thread and a 180 needle, the stitching won't be tight.

I hope I am answering the questions here, sometimes I digress.

On your Viking, when the bobbin thread "lays flat" on the bottom, you need more top tension to pull up the bobbin thread a little. I don't think I would want to use over a 46 thread in the Viking, maybe smaller. With thread sizes 46 and down, the color selection available goes up dramatically. You see these color charts from the thread manufacturers, but try and find anything more than white, brown, and black in the bigger sizes.

Yes, you do want compound feed or at the very least a walking foot on a leather machine. Compound feeds like needle feed/walking foot or needle feed/jump foot are optimal. Drop feed (feed dogs) can be a little problem sometimes when combined with the needle feed/walking foot and edge sewing.

Art

I've decided to invest in a good machine, and have done a little research lately. I think I've settled on a Toro3K, or possibly a Cowboy 441 clone, as either will be more than capable for making holsters and some tack. I spoke to someone at Neels (Ryan?) the other day and discussed the similarities/differences of the two. I'd also recieved a recommendation for a Neels model 5, but I'm pretty sure I want the compound/needle feed to avoid excessive marking on the leather when I have grain out on both sides.

The Artisan website also advertises it's abilitiy to sew lighter leathers with a needle change. Is the Toro3k too much machine, even stepped down to a smaller needle, for sewing bags, purses, and wallets? I know very little about sewing machines and will only be able to afford one (more) at this time. I currently have a Viking 6440 (thanks, Ma) and am having trouble with the bottom of the stitches laying flat instead of being 'locked' in the hole.

I appreciate any input, and add a further question: What thread sizes should I be using with the Viking for wallet construction?

[2MadJacks]

I use a #18 neddle with #69 thread and when I start sewing whithout and other adjustments. My bobbin thread is being pulled up to the to the top so.. the main tension (on the side of the machine) is to tight. After backing it off some and once I get pretty close to where I need to be I then adjust the top rear (minor) tension. I don't adjust the bobbin tension at all. To me this is minor, believe me, I'm not wanting to make you think I enjoy doing this. but it is cheaper than buying a new machine. also if you still feel like you have to adjust you bobbin and thats whats bothering you the most, have you maybe thought of just buying an extra shuttle hook and bobbin just for lighter work? Don't know just a thought. James

[esantoro]

I use a #18 neddle with #69 thread and when I start sewing whithout and other adjustments. My bobbin thread is being pulled up to the to the top so.. the main tension (on the side of the machine) is to tight. After backing it off some and once I get pretty close to where I need to be I then adjust the top rear (minor) tension. I don't adjust the bobbin tension at all. To me this is minor, believe me, I'm not wanting to make you think I enjoy doing this. but it is cheaper than buying a new machine. also if you still feel like you have to adjust you bobbin and thats whats bothering you the most, have you maybe thought of just buying an extra shuttle hook and bobbin just for lighter work? Don't know just a thought. James

Hi James,

Where are you getting #18 needles for the toro? I thought the smallest available was #23. Since your setup for 69 thread is working for you, nothing needs to be changed,but I'm curious to know if the top tension on 69 thread will be better if you don't wrap the top thread twice around the upper tension pigtail, as is done in the Artisan video. I, too, would like to make my 441 as versatile as possible.

Thanks,

Ed

[2MadJacks]

I ordered my needles from artisan at the same time I bought the machine. And I too have thought about using only one wrap on the top or maybe even the side but I have not tried this yet. should make things much quicker. before I bought this machine I dealt with an older gentleman on an old Mercury simalar to the toro 3k. with the mercury he said he only used one wrap on the side tension unless he was sewing thicker material, then he used two wraps. James