How do I do the fringe?

[gtwister09]

In reading this post, it appears that we are forgetting an important item....SAFETY.

No matter if you use the utility knives or not...

First thing is that "Safety" utility knife blades DO break no matter who makes them... I have used foldable, retractable and stationary knives from Sheffield, Irwin, various Stanley brands, Great Necks and Besseys to name a few. I have used blades from no name cheapos, Stanley, Irwin and even Lenox Titanium blades and the one thing that they ALL do at some time is to break or snap. I have used them for cutting gaskets, fiberglass mats and repair on boats, various cabinetry/construction/carpentry items, asphalt roofing, foam and manufacturing....even cutting thin wire mesh.

Here's the safety warnings from 3 different "Safety" utility knives.

Warning: Utility Knife is intended for cutting only and should be handled with extreme care. Bending the blade can cause it to break, possibly resulting in bodily damage. Wear safety glasses at all times.

Warning: Always wear eye protection which complies with current ANSI Standard Z87.1. Always maintain firm footing and control of the tool. Always disconnect power source before using tool on electrical boxes, fittings or any work piece which could conduct electricity. Electric shock or electrocution could result. Do not twist tool when cutting. The blade could break throwing sharp pieces in all directions.

Warning: Use eye protection at all times to prevent damage to your eyes. Do not use on material that is conducting electrical current. If so, disconnect electrical current to prevent electrocution. Use firm footing, correct posture and maintain proper control of the tool. Do not twist or bend the blade as this may cause bodily injury due to the possibility of blade breakage.

Needless to say every one of them makes the point that the blades can break. Even the packs of blades have warnings about breakage as well.

Trick for "Problem" Leather Material

I was shown a trick for cutting VERY stretchy leather almost 30 yeas ago. The chap maker who used this technique said that he had only used 5 or 6 times but when it was needed he said it was a great asset. He normally only cut with a knife and an old layout ruler (see through ruler with a steel edge to cut against) to cut fringe even down to 1/8". However sometimes the material would stretch so badly that he had to use another method to cut the leather.

He would take a piece of clear shelf liner and apply it to the back side of the chap leather to firm it up. After applying it he would take a glass slicker and make sure that the liner and material were without bubbles. Then he could cut the "problem" fringe with no poblem. On my first couple of fringe jobs he had me use this method as well. It was actually quite easy to cut this way but it adds to the production time to complete the job.

Hopefully this could help someone with stretchy problem material.

Regards,

Ben

[UKRay]

Ben,

A week or two back I had my round knife break in my hand whilst I was cutting a straight strap - I had a lucky escape. My point is that all knives can be dangerous and accidents will occasionally happen no matter how careful you are. Saying that all safety utility knives are dangerous is like saying a gun is dangerous - sure it is - when it is in the wrong (or untrained) hands. Equally, it can be a valuable tool.

I do like your trick for stretchy leather - I'll definitely file that one away 'til I need it. Thanks!

Ray

[gtwister09]

Ray,

Glad that you liked the trick for stretchy leather and could possibly use the suggestion in the future. That's what the board/forum is for.

I did read your round knife and welding fiasco. Sorry that occurred to you.

My post was NOT to offend you or argue with you but to raise safety awareness with regard to these blades. As a point of reference to make your point and mine as well, I have a friend who had his eye cut (even with safety glasses on that met ANSI standards) because a new blade snapped so I am certainly careful about their use. Even in trained hands they can be an issue as experienced by my friend who had a freak accident (yes I stress a freak accident). Both of us still use these utility knives regularly. You have likewise made the point about all knives are sharp and could cause an accident. Agreed.

Some points of clarification..... (1) I did not say that utility knives didn't have a place to be used. In fact I stated that I have used MANY types of utility knives with many different blades on a multitude of jobs and occupations. (2) I gave the actual Warnings from three different utility knives. It is their warnings NOT mine. (3) I likewise made no comment as to utility knives being a gun either. I didn't see any gun comments except for yours. (4) I didn't make a comment about it NOT being a valuable tool either.

I am sorry that you were offended by Steve and Randy's comments. My guess is that was the reason for reading more into my post than was there. It is certainly their opinion and just like belly buttons we all have them. You likewise disagreed with them as well so you likewise had an opinion. Most saddlemakers would encourage you to step up to using a round knife.

Since you raised the issue of round knives breaking, I would have to say that breaking a round knife certainly occurs a whole lot less than breaking a razor blade. In fact from an engineer's standpoint, you could state that statistically speaking round knife breakages would be insignificant when compared to the number of utility blades broken.

I think that we can all agree that all types of knives are sharp and dangerous and should be handled with care. Accidents can and do occur even when we are careful but safety and awareness training is NEVER a bad suggestion. The manufacturer's warning labels show us that we have additional issues to be concerned with when we use utility knives in any type of work whether it is for leather work or any other trade or occupation.

Regards,

Ben

[UKRay]

Ben,

I wouldn't argue with anything you just said other than the suggestion that I was in any way upset with you. That is not the case at all.

Ray

[ArtS]

I use a roller blade for the fringe and it works out great.

Art

[steve mason]

"the most insulting statement ever" WOW, not sure what you read between the lines but that is not what I meant. I have read and reread my post and I can't see where I made such an insulting statement. I never said any such that thing that I was better than anyone here because I use a round knife and they don't. What I said was that a round knife is made to cut leather and a utility knife is not designed to cut leather, they will and do break, I don't believe that they are a safe tool to use. You can go ahead and use whatever tool you like, on my bench there is and never will be a utility knife. I will not appologize as I feel I did no wrong. I stand by may statement.

I do not use a round knife because it is traditional, I use one because it is what works best for me, if it does not work for you then don't use one. A quote from a great saddle maker whom I respect very much is "you can use the broad side of an axe if it gets the job done" Round knifes gets the job done for me.

ps; this is a good discussion, it's good to get heated up a little once in a while.

Steve

Steve,

I have looked at your website and seen the beautiful stuff you make and respect your work enormously. You are obviously a very skilled craftsman; that notwithstanding, I still think this is the most insulting statement I have ever seen on this forum. How can you even suggest that the people who work so hard to make the wonderful, exciting things we see on a daily basis here aren't as good as you just because they don't use a round knife to cut their leather?

I am absolutely astounded. ...and Randy, your comment wasn't much better.

Ray

[flathat4life]

A "SHARP" round knife and a see through straight edge are my two tools of choice. Depending on the chap leather i'l use a cork back ruler... The box knife would be my next favorite "if" i didn't have a good sharp round knife. Since the razor blades are so thin, they will glide through the leather like a sharp round knife. As soon as the blades start draging a little bit, just swawp out with a new one and keep cutting. I've cut out alot of leather with one and still use it on some things. Try getting the contractor grade blades from your local hardware store if worryed about snaping them. In my opinion, you shouldn't have a problem with the regular economy ones as long as your handling your knife right. When i first got started, i used a roler knife. Being self taught I didn't know better. I'v found that for one you cant get a straight up crisp start cut on the fring line with the circlar blade. Secound is that after a few cuts the knife will start pushing the leather a cause it to stretch out from under the ruler. That can result in a inconsistant width and crispness to your fringe.. i'v attached a pair of armitas that i built a while back. i used the box knife to cut everything because its all i had at the time. Everybody has there own opinion way of doing things. The reason i started useing a round knife is because to me its just the best and easyist cutting thing out there.Plus its a traditional tool. As Steve and others have said, the round knife has been used by the best saddle makers for over a hundred years for a reason....It shouldn't matter what tool you use just as long as the blade is sharp... figure out what works best for you and stick with it.

I'm young and enexsperianced so take my words with a grain of salt...

Jed

[2MadJacks]

Hello Steve,

I would like to clearify what I thought about your first statement. As I work mids and now have gotten some sleep and time to think after my first statement. I believe what blew me away was that it sounds as if you are implying, since some of us also use other knivesrazors along with the round knife, that we don't have a QUALITY leather shop. This is just was what my eyes seen in your post. Also I guess I better mention that I use a rotary knife to cut my fringe.

And yes is good and fun to get a little heated in our debates, thats what makes us all great crafters.

James,

Also your work is outstanding.

[Windy]

Wow , I had to laugh to keep from crying upon reading this thread.

I am just glad that it was not an old master leather worker who

put the first tire on a car. Can you imagine Henry Ford talking to

Harvey Firestone in the early days as Firestone told Ford "I have

been making tires for a ten thousand years and stone tires are the only

way to go" . Or how the look on that old Chinese math teacher's face

when someone said I have a computer for adding up the numbers and

he said why I have some beads on a board(abacus) that works just fine

and I have been using it for five thousand years. Then a guy tells his wife

he bought her a new electric oven and she says why women have

cooked over a wood fire since the beginning of time. Then there

was the surgeon who said what stainless steel, surgeons have been

using sharpened rocks for a hundred years to cut open people, why

only a non professional surgeon would use a stainless steel super

sharp scalpel. Do I need to go on afore you people see how silly you

are. I believe it was Bill Gates who said " I see no reason anyone

would need a computer faster than the 486". Oh and one more just

for fun , what do you mean you invented indoor plumbing , people

have been going in the woods since the beginning of time.I reckon

my point is just because someone who is a master does mean that

they are always right. We all can learn something even from a person

who just took up the craft or trade.

And to the guy who says all blades break , sure they do if you abuse

them. A knife is for cutting , not prying and never to be used as a

screwdriver. And believe it or not a knife is not a hammer either even

though I have seen more than one person use it as one.

WINDY

[ChuckBurrows]

Yes an interesting conversation but a couple of observations if I may.

1) Yes round/head knives were purpose designed for cutting leather, but are mainly traditional to saddlery and harness making and are much older than 100 years or so. They were and are seldom used in other leather trades such as luggage making, bag making, shoe making, and book binding. In these latter trades the traditional knives are more often straight knives or clicker knives - both blades being not much difference in thickness from the modern utility knife and in the case of the clicker knife the blades are much narrower so possibility of breakage is higher than with good utility blades

So while head/round knives are traditional they are not the only traditional leather knives and are mainly traditional as noted for saddlery/harness where one encounters thicker leather frequently and they do shine for that purpose in particular, but whether they are the best for all usages depends on the user and materials as much as the tool. FWIW - I'm pretty much a dyed in the wool traditionalist and have been studying leather craft, mostly historic from medieval times to the 19th century for 48 years (as a pro since about 1970), and often what we consider traditional tooling is in fact fairly modern in the grand scheme.

2) Safety - yes utility knife makers cover their back sides with safety warnings, but that's more due to the possibility of litigation in today's society rather than some massive number of accidents. It makes me laugh/cry when I see some of the safety warnings put on products these days. Good quality utility blades (I like Persona brand) are as safe as can be and yes there is always the possibility that they can break, but frankly the thought of an amateur leather crafter using a head/round knife without proper hands on training is much scarier - they are not a tool for the uninitiated, the possibility for a serious accident is much higher in my opinion and yes I used then for many years, but due to various circumstances I now prefer other knives, including utility knives, even though I have been a pro knifemaker since the 1970's and can and have made my own leather knives of various types.

Also one should consider the numbers of utility blades users in all trades as compared to the use of head knives - I'm willing to bet that it's thousand to one - there are a fair number of leather crafters using head/round knives, but the numbers are small compared to the number of people every day using utility knives and often using them for much tougher jobs than cutting leather - cutting sheet rock and carpet are two off the top of my head. So yes having a utility blade break should be a safety concern, but frankly in some 35+ years using utility knives for working leather as well as in construction I've only seriously broken a couple of blades, more often just the tip breaks off when cutting a tight corner. So IMO the idea that they are some how more unsafe than a head/round knife doesn't compute........

Razor knifes are for cutting open cardboard they have no other place in a quality leather makers shop. You will be a much better leather worker in the long run if you learn to use the right tools for the right job at the time.

Steve - with respect this is the part that caused some hackles to raise - the implication being that you're not a quality maker unless one uses the tools that you deem as proper - an opinion "colored" IMO by you being a saddle maker using the tools traditional to that trade, which as I noted are far from being the only traditional leather working tools.......and perhaps not so oddly any time the use of a head/round knife comes up in these discussion it is almost invariably saddle/harness makers who tout their sterling qualities as being the "best". FWIW - Technically or semantically anyway a razor knife or box cutter isn't the same thing as a utility knife.

I do agree with the latter part of your statement, but what is the right tool can depend on the user as well as the end use .....for instance there was a gent back in the 1930-40's, whose name escapes me, who did some of the most fantastic leather carving ever done - his carving knife - a sharpened screw driver (oddly a tool whose blade shape was not too dissimilar to the knives used for carving prior to the introduction of the swivel knife in the early 20th Century). One of my earliest teachers in the craft refused to use a mallet for tooling, he used only the to him traditional dapping stick - something I never could get the hang of. These tools worked for them and isn't that's what counts? As you stated use

IMO everyone should try various tools and find what works best for them - there is no single best way to do anything and after studying old tools for years it's amazing how many variations and individualized tools there are so I reckon I'm not the only one that sees things that way.......

Back to the subject: As to cutting fringe - again there's more than one way, but here's how I mostly do it ...

In my work, which these days is most often 19th Century Indian style, which uses soft leathers such as elk or deer (mostly braintan or chamois) and is quite often 24-30" long or longer, I dampen and pre-stretch the hides for fringe and leave hang for a couple of days in the sun - if need be I re-stretch. This helps immensely and does no damage. I then use good sharp industrial scissors, but I DO NOT saw my way through (no blisters!)- rather I start the cut and slide/glide the shears through the leather - with practice it's easy to cut even very fine fringe. No it's no 100% perfect, but then nothing I do anyway is - only the "Great Spirit" is perfect...

The other option I use when cutting shorter lengths is similar to Luke - I dampen the backside so it "sticks" to the surface of the cutting board ( I use those one of those self-healing boards fro fringe). Then dampen the face so that the straight edge (I use a 1" wide galvanized metal strip) will "stick" and then cut with a sharp knife (your choice of course!).

In both cases I keep a strop handy and continually strop my cutting instrument......

as always - other mileage WILL vary.........

Edited February 26, 2009 by ChuckBurrows