NoahL Report post Posted March 26, 2009 Hey everybody! I recently began working with leather (knife sheath, key fob, practice pieces, etc) and I have really enjoyed it. I will soon be making a fancy knife sheath with a kydex liner and a belt pouch, and maybe a bracer or two. The problem with this interest is that my girlfriend is vegan, and as such is quite against the use of any animal products. She made an agreement with me that if a free-range animal died of natural causes and had its hide tanned (rather than being raised and killed for meat or leather specifically), that leather would be acceptable with her for me to use (she won't wear it, most likely, but she wouldn't be morally against me using it, at least). Have any of you very talented people out there ever found a place/person to purchase it from? I know it is probably an odd request, but I really enjoy leatherwork and I also really enjoy spending my life with my girlfriend, so I don't want to get rid of either one . Thanks everybody! ~Noah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Johanna Report post Posted March 26, 2009 Animals are not killed for their hides. Leather is a byproduct of the meat industry. There is no incentive for ranchers to wait until a cow drops dead, then skin it and sell the hide, so I don't know if her request is practical. Maybe if she had some more education about how the chain works, she'd be more understanding. Will one of you ranchers jump in here and explain the process? Johanna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoahL Report post Posted March 26, 2009 Animals are not killed for their hides. Leather is a byproduct of the meat industry. There is no incentive for ranchers to wait until a cow drops dead, then skin it and sell the hide, so I don't know if her request is practical. Maybe if she had some more education about how the chain works, she'd be more understanding. Will one of you ranchers jump in here and explain the process?Johanna Hi Johanna, Thanks for the quick response! I'm aware that animals aren't killed for their hides specifically, but for meat and then the hide is taken so it doesn't go to waste. The problem with that is the fact that's she is vegan, therefore she doesn't want them taken for the meat in the first place, hence the "free-range" and "dying of natural causes" portions of my post. I somehow doubt that she would simply accept the fact that they are a biproduct of the meat industry, unfortunately. My grandparents own a farm and some cattle (they raise the cattle for enjoyment and sell them when they need extra cash), and they do die from time to time, of course, but I don't know anyone that could tan the hides from that situation--if I did, though, then I'd be set . Thanks again! ~Noah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tkleather1 Report post Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) I have never understood the whole vegan thing but to each his own. but the thing I dont get is they dont like the killing of living things right? But they eat vegatables right? Last time I looked those are living organisms too. they grow and use oxygen or produce oxygen but either way it is alive. So does she wear plastic shoes or what. Well no because that would kill an animal too in order to get oil and what not to make the plastic. so personally I think that the vegan thing is a little strange and makes zero sense. but please feel free to tell me how wrong I am and My ears are wide open if you can explain the thought process in a logical way. by the way I am not trying to shake the cage here I just dont understand. Edited March 26, 2009 by Tkleather1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorsehairBraider Report post Posted March 26, 2009 Would dog or cat hides be acceptable to her? Those often die without being killed for meat. You might even be able to find some along the road. The hide is small, but so are the hides of rabbits and those are often tanned. I know Tandy sells a home tanning kit. Usually though, when one wants leather, the best thing to do is get a hide from a place that actually kills animals for meat. Those hides are generally bigger. And for various reasons some hides are deemed more "acceptable" than others, depending on the animal it came from. To me, dead is dead, but I realize not everyone sees it that way. I do hope you are able to overcome this issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoahL Report post Posted March 26, 2009 I have never understood the whole vegan thing but to each his own. but the thing I dont get is they dont like the killing of living things right? But they eat vegatables right? Last time I looked those are living organisms too. they grow and use oxygen or produce oxygen but either way it is alive. So does she wear plastic shoes or what. Well no because that would kill an animal too in order to get oil and what not to make the plastic. so personally I think that the vegan thing is a little strange and makes zero sense. but please feel free to tell me how wrong I am and My ears are wide open if you can explain the thought process in a logical way.by the way I am not trying to shake the cage here I just dont understand. Well, I just had a vague explanation written up (I'm not vegan/vegetarian, afterall) but then my work Internet decided to complain about my passwords and wiped it all out, so I'll write up an even more brief one. It isn't so much "killing of living things" as the fact that thinking, feeling creatures are being raised (often in very poor conditions) and killed (often inhumanely, from what I hear from the people working in meat processing plants) to provide food when (in today's world, at least) humans don't actually NEED to eat meat, with a few exceptions regarding allergies and digestive disabilities. In her mind, the desire for leather is just one more reason these animals are being raised in horrible conditions and killed inhumanely. She does have to wear normal shoes because we can't afford the vegan alternatives (except really crappy plastic shoes, and she's on her feet all day, so that won't work), but those are something she has to accept for the time being. My sheathmaking/pouchmaking desires are a hobby, not a necessity, and they can be done with cheap alternatives like Kydex and canvas, so she doesn't see any reason why I should need to use leather. That's the best I can explain it, being quite non-vegan myself. Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hilly Report post Posted March 26, 2009 I can't quite wrap my flesh chewing mind around veganism, either! Here's what I'd do: I'd pick up car killed deer, and send the hides in to have them tanned. A taxidermist could probably tell you where to send them, or send them in for you. You can make some neat stuff out of deer hide. OR, if you think your girlfriend couldn't tell the difference between a piece of deer hide and a piece of veg tan cow hide, I'd "send a deer hide in to be tanned" and sneak off to Tandy to buy a piece of leather of my choice, and just tell her it's the one you "scraped off the pavement and sent to the tannery". OR you can learn to make rawhide and do some braiding with deer skins and other tasty things that just happen to "jump in front" of your car. Just sayin' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoahL Report post Posted March 26, 2009 I can't quite wrap my flesh chewing mind around veganism, either!Here's what I'd do: I'd pick up car killed deer, and send the hides in to have them tanned. A taxidermist could probably tell you where to send them, or send them in for you. You can make some neat stuff out of deer hide. OR, if you think your girlfriend couldn't tell the difference between a piece of deer hide and a piece of veg tan cow hide, I'd "send a deer hide in to be tanned" and sneak off to Tandy to buy a piece of leather of my choice, and just tell her it's the one you "scraped off the pavement and sent to the tannery". OR you can learn to make rawhide and do some braiding with deer skins and other tasty things that just happen to "jump in front" of your car. Just sayin' That would've been an option back in Illinois, but now I live in Phoenix, AZ and I actually haven't seen ANY roadkill here, which I think is odd. My girlfriend definitely doesn't know the difference between deer and cow hides, but I do have this terrible habit of being honest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rawhide1 Report post Posted March 27, 2009 This is almost to funny!!!!!! I say get rid of the girlfriend.There's more girls out there than ya can shake a stick at that love eating meat!!LOL Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Timd Report post Posted March 27, 2009 that's the thought that crossed my mind, Mike. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Timbo Report post Posted March 27, 2009 .........just to add a few things.....if we had never started eating meat we would never have evolved into what we are today. It took the proteins that meat provides for our brains to develop. Without meat we would still be cavemen, but probably extinct. As far as using hides from dead things.......they are only good if you get them when they are still warm or at least very fresh. And it is way better if what killed them caused them to bleed out all the way before they died. When you find a dead cow in the field it is good for nothing. The hide and meat is no good.......unless you want to follow them around waiting for them to die. Our country is already too hung up on "pets" without getting into "no meat" In most countries around the world Trigger, Spot and Fluffy are on the menu. We have people out of work, people with no place to live and people with no food. Want to take up a cause?? Pick a real one. Not trying to be inflammatory..... Just my.02 Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shirleyz Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Would dog or cat hides be acceptable to her? Those often die without being killed for meat. You might even be able to find some along the road. This string is hilarious! I just logged on after months away and I have been crying laughing! :laughing: Sorry Noah! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anne newkold Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Question? does she ride in your car? does she ever use things like eye drops? Many car related items such as tires and other parts have animal by products used in them. Natural saline solution comes from a roaster comb, and animal by products are used in thousands of other applications. Next time you take her to a state fair see it they have a barn tour put on by a college that has a large animal veterinary program. She will get quite the education! She will have to rethink her how life! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tkleather1 Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Well, I just had a vague explanation written up (I'm not vegan/vegetarian, afterall) but then my work Internet decided to complain about my passwords and wiped it all out, so I'll write up an even more brief one. It isn't so much "killing of living things" as the fact that thinking, feeling creatures are being raised (often in very poor conditions) and killed (often inhumanely, from what I hear from the people working in meat processing plants) to provide food when (in today's world, at least) humans don't actually NEED to eat meat, with a few exceptions regarding allergies and digestive disabilities. In her mind, the desire for leather is just one more reason these animals are being raised in horrible conditions and killed inhumanely. She does have to wear normal shoes because we can't afford the vegan alternatives (except really crappy plastic shoes, and she's on her feet all day, so that won't work), but those are something she has to accept for the time being. My sheathmaking/pouchmaking desires are a hobby, not a necessity, and they can be done with cheap alternatives like Kydex and canvas, so she doesn't see any reason why I should need to use leather. That's the best I can explain it, being quite non-vegan myself. Thanks! Well coming from the cattle industry side of things I have to call B.S. and no offense to you but I dont think she has a clue as to what she is talking about and I do take offense to the fact that there are people out there who are willing to put hundreds of thousands of people out of business just because of her opinion. Those cattle have it pretty darn good if you ask me. instead of being out on the open range not being able to find food and starving to death they are fed quite well, given a pletiful supply of water, vaccinated so they dont get sick and die. maybe she should be set free with no food or water in nevada or the mountains of washington and see if that is a better life than going to the grocery store and getting her dinner, or going to the doctor. I bet she would change her mind just a little about how bad things are for the critters at the feed yard. Dont get me wrong I am sure that there are some cattle that dont have it as good as others but there are people that just arent good people and dont treat animals right at all. Sorry if this is offensive to you or her but 99% of my friends make there living with some hand in the cattle industry so if you dont have a first hand say in this then I dont think you should have a say at all. otherwise it is just hearsay isnt it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoahL Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Question? does she ride in your car? does she ever use things like eye drops? Many car related items such as tires and other parts have animal by products used in them. Natural saline solution comes from a roaster comb, and animal by products are used in thousands of other applications. Next time you take her to a state fair see it they have a barn tour put on by a college that has a large animal veterinary program. She will get quite the education! She will have to rethink her how life! No, she doesn't use eye drops, and yes, she does know that many things, even things like toothpaste and chewing gum have animal byproducts in them. As I mentioned earlier, there are some things that she is aware she must live with because we can't afford (or they haven't yet developed) alternatives. I must say, though, that we are somewhat deviating from the question--and I don't mean to be rude by saying so. I was not attempting to start a discussion on morals, beliefs, diets, or right and wrong, but simply attempting to find out of this is something that is possible to find or have made. Glad to see that everyone is having quite the field day with it though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted March 27, 2009 My grandparents own a farm and some cattle (they raise the cattle for enjoyment and sell them when they need extra cash), and they do die from time to time, of course, but I don't know anyone that could tan the hides from that situation--if I did, though, then I'd be set . Noah, that would probably be your best bet. Them or ranchers closer to you that you know well enough they would call you when something is sick enough to be put down. Find out ahead of time where you can get something tanned. A taxidemist is a good suggestion. Then when you get the call, go out and be there either when they put it down or as soon as possible afterwards (blood pooling in the down side discolors the hide) and you skin it out and get it to the tanner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littlebow Report post Posted March 27, 2009 I got an old crock that i'll kill naturally with my 22-250 and your girl friend can pay me 50 cent a pound , heck I'll even load it for her Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorsehairBraider Report post Posted March 27, 2009 I got an old crock that i'll kill naturally with my 22-250 and your girl friend can pay me 50 cent a pound , heck I'll even load it for her She probably wouldn't see that as "natural" - heck, I guess my idea of road kill isn't quite right either. And I must admit, road-killed animals don't supply the best hides. It was just the best thing I could think of. There are all sorts of dead dogs on the roads here, some quite respectable in size; if one had time to cruise the roads periodically you could even get them fairly fresh. You can get in trouble for picking up dead deer in some states, but I don't think they mind if you pick up the dead dogs. I just have a sneaking suspicion she would dislike the idea of dog leather even more than she dislikes the idea of cow leather, but perhaps not; perhaps she is fair-minded in this way. I hope NoahL can find a solution; he seems like a guy with his head on right and I'd like to see him stick around! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Johanna Report post Posted March 27, 2009 I could go on for hours with stories of PETA and vegans and hate mail, but that's beside the point. I think it's neat to see a man trying to respect his girlfriend's beliefs, even if he and most everybody think her beliefs are a little extreme or impractical. At least she is making a conscious effort to put her money and her time into doing what she thinks is right, even if we think she's nuts. And vice versa. Maybe she'll be okay with you using "scrap" leather, leather that is destined to be wasted (thrown in a landfill). I'm sure you can find some sources of scrap just by asking around. I think you deserve a pat on the back for trying to be thoughtful. Johanna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cem Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Noah I admit you are in a difficult situation with your girlfriend as those are her beliefs and from what you have written not yours, could you reach a comprimise in that you do you leatherwork in a different part of the house somewhere that can be shut off like a spare bedroom or garage where she doesn't have to actually see it with out making a consious effect. Or possibly even do it at your grandparents place. You obviously have respect for your girlfriend in starting this thread and finding out about alternatives but she needs to do the same for you as you don't have the same beliefs. You could start by letting her know that you wont do the leatherwork around her, won't show her anything that contains leather that she doesn't agree with and you will dispose of any leather scraps away from the house or in opaque bags so she doesn't have to see it. I hope you find a comprimise as leatherwork is a great hobby to participate in. Kind regards, Clair Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
analogphotographer Report post Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Is there anything else she wants you to do or stop doing.If so make a trade,tell her you want to do leather work and in return you will give up some other thing. Also maybe some people here would be willing to sell you some scraps and on occasion put in an extra piece for you here in there. Hey look at me top of page 2. Edited March 27, 2009 by analogphotographer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Natural causes, huh? Cast bullets are made from lead....that's natural. Wooden arrows are natural. I've alway kinda figured that being hungry was natural.. See where this is going? If you need an 'all natural' bow, I'm pretty sure I can whip up something that uses twisted/braided plant fibers as a string and real spotted owl or red hawk feathers for the fletching. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoahL Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Well, all I can really do at this point in the thread is sigh. I am a newbie to the world of leatherworking, and newer still to this forum, but I came here with an honest question and in return I am getting ridicule, criticism, and advice to break up with my girlfriend. I certainly did not ask this question to spark rants about how stupid people think vegans, vegetarians, and PETA may be, but that's all that I really see in two pages of posts. A few of you did sincerely try to answer my question, and I truly appreciate your help. I can say that I will continue to come to this site to see the beautiful craftsmanship, and to read up on leatherworking techniques and processes, but I can't say that this experience makes me all that willing to participate here. Apparently if I do ask any questions, I need to limit them so as to not include any background information, or any explanation as to why I am asking. I know that this is the Internet, and it can be a rough place--and judging by what I have seen, for this post alone I will be flamed, as it must be further evidence that I need to "grow a sack"--but I did honestly expect more from a forum of craftsmen and women. Thank you again, to those of you who did try to help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Noah, I think it may be time to consider silversmithing as a hobby... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badger Report post Posted March 27, 2009 Can you guys hear yourselves? Whatever happened to 'live and let live'? I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. I think Noah has been treated very rudely by some of the members here. I can't believe how harsh and judgemental some of you can be. Frankly it's open abuse of Noah and his partner. Who are you to judge relationships and to comment on someone's personal beliefs? I doubt you'd take the same abuse about yours quietly. Kevin Johnson, Steve Mason and TKleather1.... You owe Noah and his partner an apology. I joined this board because of the spirit of friendship and brother/sisterhood and the spirit of sharing I saw here. This is very disappointing. I'm surprised and shocked by the outpouring of venom here. An apology is in order. Noah, I'm very sorry to read the crap that's been posted about you and your partner Please, please don't assume we're all like this. Please PM me, I may be able to help. Cheers, Karl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
