Looking for feed back and advice

[CedarCreek]

Hello, I have some questons for the holster makers who have been building holsters for people other than themselves. Have you ever turned a customer down and why? Have you ever had a customer come pick up the holsters and tell you they didn't want them? If so what was the reasoning? What gaurantee do you have that you wont get stiff in the end? I would like to hear stories and suggestions on the subject.

The reason I ask is because I am currently doing a job for a customer and I am getting a bad feeling about it, and I have already invested some time and money into the project. I have my own style and ideas on how a holster should be design and built, but I am open to some input from the customer. The problem with this customer is I'm affraid that there may be no satisfy him. I showed him samples and pictures of what I make and we spent a considerable amount of time just trying to figure out exactly what he wanted. Since then he has called me three or four times wanting to add or change something. He wants this double holster rig for his civil war/ cowboy reinactment hobby. I am currently holding his guns for designing and fitting the holsters, but in the end I do not think that is a guarantee I will get payed. I've built a few dozen western holsters for my self and customers and not had any issues. I've posted some on here and I feel they are a quality holster. Well I could go on about this with more detail but lets see what kind of responses I get. Thanks

CedarCreek

Edited April 1, 2009 by CedarCreek

[claybuster101]

There seems to be a turning point in every businesses natural life that you are faced with a nagging feeling, if you should or shouldn't take on a specific job. After all no one wants to turn down money. However, that time comes for every business. Ours came 30 years ago when we had a small construction company. A local well known businessman was developing a new strip mall located well within our comfort zone of ability and distance. His office called and asked to bid on a set of plans for "phase II" of the project. Right away I asked myself, what happened to the guys from "phase I"????? This project would have been huge for us (over $500K), however common sense took over, I did some digging, had a couple of meetings with the project manager and owner. When they would not come up with the required upfront monies or escrow the next draw I told them "NO THANKS!" Sure it hurt a little bit to say that. But as luck would have it, the bank ended up taking the development back and I am glad I said no. It was much easier after that to say no to various projects throughout my business life.

As far as having customers "stiff" me. Yea that has happened also. I didn't like it. And there were a couple of times when we were not able to deliver our product in a timeframe that I had quoted. I either ate the work completely or offered a substantial discount for the customers inconvenience. Thankfully over 35 years I only need some of the fingers on one hand to count all those times.

Only 1 bad check in all those years as well (it was a whopper $900) but we eventually got it all.

What I would want to find out from a customer that says they are not happy, is WHY they are not happy. Does the fit seem improper? Did I not follow their wishes? Was there a change unaccounted for? This information is probably more valuable than the cost of the holster or leather piece you are selling. You could ask the customer Mr./Mrs. Customer, what do you think is fair? If it is a product quality issue, then you have to fix it, if they respond with an answer, you have to determine can you afford to take a screwing on this to A: Save the customer and any good word of mouth advertising that might be derived from the transaction or B: Tell them you understand, however your policy prohibits you from doing business under those conditions: C: Offer up a comprimise...Redo the job to their exact specs, allow them to "use" the holster you just made until the new one is done. But by all means you get the cash NOW. Swap the holsters when the new one is ready.....aside from our bruised artistic ego's...everyone wins.

Edited April 1, 2009 by claybuster101

[CedarCreek]

There seems to be a turning point in every businesses natural life that you are faced with a nagging feeling, if you should or shouldn't take on a specific job. After all no one wants to turn down money. However, that time comes for every business. Ours came 30 years ago when we had a small construction company. A local well known businessman was developing a new strip mall located well within our comfort zone of ability and distance. His office called and asked to bid on a set of plans for "phase II" of the project. Right away I asked myself, what happened to the guys from "phase I"????? This project would have been huge for us (over $500K), however common sense took over, I did some digging, had a couple of meetings with the project manager and owner. When they would not come up with the required upfront monies or escrow the next draw I told them "NO THANKS!" Sure it hurt a little bit to say that. But as luck would have it, the bank ended up taking the development back and I am glad I said no. It was much easier after that to say no to various projects throughout my business life.

As far as having customers "stiff" me. Yea that has happened also. I didn't like it. And there were a couple of times when we were not able to deliver our product in a timeframe that I had quoted. I either ate the work completely or offered a substantial discount for the customers inconvenience. Thankfully over 35 years I only need some of the fingers on one hand to count all those times.

Only 1 bad check in all those years as well (it was a whopper $900) but we eventually got it all.

What I would want to find out from a customer that says they are not happy, is WHY they are not happy. Does the fit seem improper? Did I not follow their wishes? Was there a change unaccounted for? This information is probably more valuable than the cost of the holster or leather piece you are selling. You could ask the customer Mr./Mrs. Customer, what do you think is fair? If it is a product quality issue, then you have to fix it, if they respond with an answer, you have to determine can you afford to take a screwing on this to A: Save the customer and any good word of mouth advertising that might be derived from the transaction or B: Tell them you understand, however your policy prohibits you from doing business under those conditions: C: Offer up a comprimise...Redo the job to their exact specs, allow them to "use" the holster you just made until the new one is done. But by all means you get the cash NOW. Swap the holsters when the new one is ready.....aside from our bruised artistic ego's...everyone wins.

Thanks for the reply. All good info and advise. The problem with this particular customer is requests like: I want it to be a good holster but I want it to look like it was made by a less than crafty mexican, I want it a little lighter color than that but a little darker than this with streaks and blotches, I want it to fit me if I loose ten more pounds and if I gain fifty more pounds, I want the holsters to be lose a floppy but I don't want my fancy new guns to get their finishes worn or fall out. All things I am capible of doing, but I told him I build a good quality, functioning holster and some of those requests negate want I do. I gave him every oppertunity to back out of the deal at the time of the origanal meeting if he didn't like our product. He quickly assured me that he liked want we made it would be fine. I hope my need for work isn't over powering my common since.

One more question. Do any of you makers hold on to the customers guns for fitting the holster, and if so have you had people reluctant to leave them with you?

thanks again.

PS Sorry about all the posts. My computer keeps submiting them before I am finished

Edited April 2, 2009 by Denise
remove multiple posts

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

If you have a bad feeling about it, there is probably a good reason. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

I would refuse to make any changes once the construction of the holster has begun. Some folks can't make up their minds as long as you give them leeway. Make sure they realize that they are paying for your time and experience at developing a working design as much as they are paying for the time and materials involved in the construction of the project.

It also wouldn't be a bad idea to get a non-refundable down payment for any custom work you take on. If you take money down, people are less likely to stiff you since it will cost them something if they don't keep their agreement. Also be aware that some people will even contract custom work and balk at the price when it is time to pay, sighting any excuse they can muster (even complaining about a design feature that was their own idea, which you tried to talk them out of). They know it will be difficult for you to sell the work to anyone else because of the customized design, and with that in mind, they try to pressure you to take less than you agreed on so you can recoup as much as possible. Taking money down can help that situation too, since it will weed out most of the swindlers from the get go, and the rest of the time you can at least cover your material costs (and a portion of the time spent building the project).

If an agreement can't be reached and a payment made before the job begins, don't take on custom work. It has cost me dearly to learn those lessons the hard way, and that is one of the biggest contributing reasons that my lead time has gotten out of hand. If you're gonna do custom orders, get paid what it is worth and protect your interests or it will cost you down the road.

[Suze]

Oh my

Post dupllication nightmare.....

If he wants that many "adjustments" to your work that will make it look like a less skilled person did it (I think I might feel a little different about it - if he had asked you to just "take the new off" of it with a LITTLE bit of distressing. But he is asking you to create junk)

I would soooo be handing him back his guns and telling him to find someone ELSE to do it

I for one as a craftsperson feel that to do something "sub-par" knowing that you can do better is a baddd thing.

You are known by your work and anyone seeing that wouldn't even THINK about going to you for work. (and you know that he will be telling everyone WHO made this piece of .....well you know)

my two cents

[Lobo]

For my standard production items, made for the more commonly used handguns, I am happy to produce them first, send photos to the customer for approval, then deal with payment and delivery. This seems to prevent most disappointments, and I don't like to have unhappy customers.

For one-of-a-kind orders, produced to customer design, etc, I request a non-refundable deposit of 50% of the order prior to beginning the work. Customer may reject the end result and that is the end of the process.

When you have a bad feeling about a customer, that is the time to apply the brakes. There are nice ways to do it, such as "Well, for such an unusual piece I will have to request a deposit of (name your number) before we begin". When the customer calls with multiple changes, it is time to request that all change orders be done in writing, with appropriate adjustments in price.

If you have a bad feeling about the customer, it is way past time to say "No thank you" to Mr. Customer and do something else with your time and materials.

Holding his guns? No way you will get away with keeping those if he chooses to initiate a small claims action in court. And no way in the world that you can convince any judge that you did what Mr. Customer ordered, especially after taking multiple change orders without documentation.

Best of luck with this one!

[Tac]

Cedar Creek... I can't answer all of your question, but I can tell you a little about my experience. I have only had one customer who wanted to complain about my work, and I did make some specific changes to that customer's holster to meet their requests, but this was after the holster was paid for and had left my hands for several weeks when it came back to me.

As for the customers guns.... I have used a customers guns on numerous occasions to make holsters that I couldn't have other wise made. When I have to use a customer's gun, that order usually gets priority in my build schedule, so that I can get the holster and gun back to the owner as soon as possible. I have never had a issue with my practice, but I do make a concerted effort to avoid using the customer's gun if I can. I have spent money on Blue Guns that I will likely never use again, just to avoid this issue... Of course, I have passed the cost of the blue gun on to the customer in most cases. I have found when this is the case, and the customer is really looking for a holster for something special, and no one is making a holster for it, they will usually understand the increase in cost for the item that they want.

Hope this helps.

-Tac

Edited April 2, 2009 by Tac

[TwinOaks]

I think all of the above is great advice, and BOOMstick and Lobo hit on the critical issue: non-refundable downpayment. With that in pocket, you at least recover material costs.

I'm working on a one-off design right now, and the customer keeps asking me if I can make it like "big name holster maker". I responded, in writing, that I won't copy their design, but could work up something. This guy is easy to work with- he sent me CAD drawings of what he wants and loaned me HIS blue gun. I thought it'd be simple at that, but he's called three times now to make adjustments to the design. I feel your pain.

[CedarCreek]

Well everything I have heard from you guys has echoed what has been going on in my head? At this point I am committed to the job and I will continued to biuld and nice functional holster. I will do my best to meet all of Mr. Customers requests. Maybe he will end up being my best customer yet, maybe not and lesson learned.

Since almost all my work is western rigs and a number of gun manufactures building clones of the origanals, rarely do any two fit exactly the same. That is the main reason I ask to keep the the customers guns. I have a fairly gun selection of guns but by no means do I have them all. I maybe wrong but I don't beleive the selection of western blue guns is as great as autos. Anyway I would never expect to keep the customers guns if he didn't pay, but it does gaurantee that he comes back when the job is done. At least then he will have to say he doesn't want them to my face .

Well, as Lobo suggested, I will start asking for a non refundable deposit. since all my rig have basical been one of

projects. It is only if I am lucky do I get to use the same pattern twice. If it doesn't work out I will post some pictures, maybe some one here will like.

Thanks, CedarCreek

[Shorts]

Thanks for the reply. All good info and advise. The problem with this particular customer is requests like: I want it to be a good holster but I want it to look like it was made by a less than crafty mexican, I want it a little lighter color than that but a little darker than this with streaks and blotches, I want it to fit me if I loose ten more pounds and if I gain fifty more pounds, I want the holsters to be lose a floppy but I don't want my fancy new guns to get their finishes worn or fall out. All things I am capible of doing, but I told him I build a good quality, functioning holster and some of those requests negate want I do. I gave him every oppertunity to back out of the deal at the time of the origanal meeting if he didn't like our product. He quickly assured me that he liked want we made it would be fine. I hope my need for work isn't over powering my common since.

One more question. Do any of you makers hold on to the customers guns for fitting the holster, and if so have you had people reluctant to leave them with you?

thanks again.

PS Sorry about all the posts. My computer keeps submiting them before I am finished

If I had a customer use the words that you just did he'd be dropped in a heartbeat. First off, I don't deal with folks who make racial implications. I've been the target at various times throughout my life and I have no tolerance for that ignorance.

At this point, I don't hold guns for customers. I do intend that it will be a part of my business. I expect to have a reasonable time limit for myself on that. I know I don't like being without mine. And it would only be for a project I was sure would be doable and comfortable for me to build within my normal build times.

I've only had one order that I ended up not wanting to do. It was all to the customer's spec and while it was exactly what was ordered, it wasn't at all what I would have voluntarily built. I never felt right about that order. I lost money on that order. It took way too long. The customer was communicative and friendly, as was I but I learned a valuable lesson from it: Say no. If I feel uncomfortable about anything I build in regards to function and quality I will say no. I'll be gracious and up front as to why when explaining to the customer, but I won't put out another item that I feel isn't up to my standards.

I do charge more for 'non-patterned' items. Since it does take more time for me to start a holster completely from scratch in the design phase.

As for all payments, I don't start work until I have received payment in full. If I do have a couple days before I start an order, I tell the customer I start on this ___ date, and payment must be received by then. I've never had a problem with customers making their payment. I've made every deadline I've set except one. And that was the above order. When telling the customer when they can expect to receive their order I overestimate by a couple days. Normally it was "within 2 weeks". And that was the case, often orders would arrive to the customer a day or two early which was a "bonus". Now I knew the holsters would be there early, but the customer didn't. That's where the benefit of overestimating the turn around time comes in.

Anyhow, if you don't feel comfortable about taking a particular order, don't. Be up front, be honest. You don't burn any bridges but you don't get yourself into a hole either.

[CedarCreek]

Well just finished these today. I will be calling the customer tomorrow and hopefully he likes them. I will keep you posted on the final outcome. Meanwhile let me know what you folks think.

Thanks

CedarCreek

[Jordan]

Looks pretty nice to me. 2 questions tho, is it the photo or is that chrome tanned leather? and is one holster a crossdraw or are my eyes playing tricks?

[Shorts]

Well just finished these today. I will be calling the customer tomorrow and hopefully he likes them. I will keep you posted on the final outcome. Meanwhile let me know what you folks think.

Thanks

CedarCreek

Nice work

[CedarCreek]

Looks pretty nice to me. 2 questions tho, is it the photo or is that chrome tanned leather? and is one holster a crossdraw or are my eyes playing tricks?

Both holsters are veg tanned leather and the belt is herman oaks harness leather. And yes the holster for the Richard's Conversion is a cross draw.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Cool rig!

[TomLine]

If he's got time to re-enact, he's probably just lonely and wants somebody to talk to. How about calling him before he calls you. If he can't decide, maybe he needs to be led a bit.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I concur with most all that has been said here. If you do custom work, you are going to run into these issues. The best advice I can give is , first (uuhhh I hate to say the word!) but; document everything that is said and done. Next if it's custom work, at least get the cost of materials up front non refundable, that way you can always sell it later and recoup your work. Finally, you have the right by law to sell their guns or whatever it is that you have of theirs to recoup your loss, as long as you have met certain criteria. I believe it is something like this, first, you have to wait I believe it is 9 months (this may vary in your particular state) from original due date for payment, second, you have to document that you have tried to collect several times generally once a month for that nine months, third, document the responses from the owner, fourth, what ever you sell it for must be at least reasonably clost to value of item sold present documentation, fifth, after you recoupe your documented loss, you have to turn over the balance to the customer, with documentation. This type of case will end up usually in small caims court. The judges there will rule in your favor as long as you have documentation to prove your claim.

Now then, this is by no means legal advice. If you need to get to this place, check with a lawyer first, and document . You can see what I mean by I hate to use the word document.

This is a long drawn out process and a real pain, I have never gotten to this point, but; I have a friend that did and that is how he handled it. Actually I have only had 2 instances where I had a problem, in one I simply stopped making the saddle for this person once I reached the point where it was going to start costing me money out of my own pocket. That tree hangs in my shop as a reminder, and the other was a custom belt I made to order for a guy at the track who later decided he didn't want it, and I promptly sold it to someone else and just don't have anything to do with him anymore. In the mean time you are better off to find a way to resolve amicably.

Hope that helps!

Bondo Bob

[CedarCreek]

Well, sorry I did not post the out come to this sooner. All did turn out fine. I had no trouble collecting. However I did complete the project about a week sooner than I origanally told the customer. Partly because I was not busy with other things and mostly because I was nervous about the whole situation. When I called him to let him know the rig was ready, he sounded a little surprised and I got the feeling he had to scramble a little to get his funds together. He showed up later that day and seemed happy with my interpatation of what he asked for.

Thanks to everyone for the words of advise. I think the biggest thing that I took for this whole situation is collect a nonrefundable deposit. I think I will continue to ask to hold onto the customers gun/guns for design and building. I think that will make sure they come back.

thanks again,

Cedar Creek

Edited May 13, 2009 by CedarCreek